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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5612 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Oh, so you see conspiracy everywhere when you are looking at a government you don't like, but you give Saddam Hussein's government every benefit of the doubt? What an amazing double standard you have there, contracycle.
quote: Well, I have my news sources which say that they happened. Do you have any particular reason or evidence which would cause me to doubt them?
quote: quote: Source please.
quote: What bullshit. Do you think that no other governments besides the US monitor Al Qaida and other Islamic terrorist groups? Italy, France, Spain, Germany and Great Britain all have counter terrorism offices and monitor Al Qaida and similar groups.
quote: He administered justice to office workers? Cleaning staff? Fire fighters? You have a very twisted idea of what justice is.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: *I* most certainly do NOT have a double standard - remember, I was opposing Aemrica's support for the brutal Saddam back when washington was feting him as Our Friend in the Middle East. It is America that demonstrably has the double standard, turning round know to complain about events like Halabja which it turned a blind eye to at the time. In fact, they even said that it was understandable Hussein was using extreme measures against Kurdish terrorism. The fact of ther matter remains that however terrible Saddams regime was, it was not so unusually terrible that it was in immediate need of toppling. The hypocritical military humanists who seem to think that democracy is achieved by laser guided munitions from 15,000 feet clearly never examined the consequences of their use of force properly, and far far more Iraqi's have died at the hands of the West than died at the hands of Saddam.
quote: Yes, I do - your own media's subsequent collective and public confession that they failed to apply due scrutiny to official pronouncements about the Iraqi government. Which is much like the same confession they gave over Vietnam. Your media has a discernible and repeated pattern of being overawed by the executive and failing to hold it to any kind of account. This is why I say the USA is the most thoroughly propagandised state on the planet.
quote: Source for what? Ritters testimony to the committee? Otr the allegations of espionage? I'm sure you have cited Ritter yourself in the past; as for the espionage allegations, by all means see here:
quote: http://bss.sfsu.edu/...20360/Readings/cia%20AND%20unscom.HTM
quote: Of course they do. But that does not mean that they know the things the US knows or claims to "know" - this is not science-land, everything is murky. We are not taking about independant reproducibility at all. And no intelligence agenceis had heard of this alleged "al Qaeda" before the US advanced its claims. Not one.
quote: What they monitor is people alleged to be members of Al Qaeda according uncheckable and unverifiable US claims. They also monitor local extremists, who may NOW be in contact with an "organisation" calling itself al qaida; but that does not imply AQ had a prior exiostance or was being monitored. Nobody had ever heard of them before 9/11.
quote: War is hell, Schraf. Maybe Bomber Bill should have though about that when he adminstered justice to make-up girls, programme producers and cameramen when he orderd the bombing of Belgrade's TV station. Or is it OK and not really murder if you are a Democrat? Once again American Exceptionalism insists that the US not be held accountable for its brutality and cruelty. Well, Bin Laden DID hold you accountable, and you didn' like it much, did you? I remind you of the debts you owe, yet unpaid:
quote:
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, you do, and the several paragraphs you wrote about Iraq are irrelevant to this point, which I will restate:
Oh, so you see conspiracy everywhere when you are looking at a government you don't like, but you give Saddam Hussein's government every benefit of the doubt? What an amazing double standard you have there, contracycle. The fact of the matter is that you are willing to give Saddam's government every benefit of the doubt (as if he had the reputation of being a wonderfully upright, just, virtuous leader instead of a homicidal sociopath), and you are completely willing to see conpiracy everywhere from a government you don't like. You know, it must be really comfy living in that black and white world, where everything is so crystal clear and you know that the "bad guys" are 100% bad and the good guys are 100% good. Too bad you don't live in reality.
quote: Except for China.
quote: Maybe Bin Laden should have though about that when he adminstered justice to office workers, firefighters, and cleaning crews when he orderd the bombing of the World Trade Center. Or is it OK and not really murder if you are a non-American?
quote: Once again a Terrorist Apologist insists that the extremist religious terrorist not be held accountable for its brutality and cruelty.
Source please. quote: Neither. I'd like a source for tis claim of yours:
quote: Show me that the chemical weapons were not actually found and destroyed, contrary to my Wikipedia timeline source.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Thats outright nonsense and personal slander, Schraf. And amazingly hypocrtitical; having frequently criticised Republican apologists for damning anyone who opposes the state as unaptriotic, here you know resort to their same dishonest technique of launching aspersions against my character and suggesting I am a "Saddam lover". Are you going to call me a cheese-eating surrender monkey next? Secondly,I have never suggested that Saddam was anything other than a homicidal sociaopath - rather like Bush and Clinton in that regard. or have I ever said that he was just an virtuous under any circumstances. Those are outright lies to blacken my character, are they not, Schraf? Third, I am not "willing" to see "conspiracy" in a government I don;t like - what I see, and have abundant evidence of, is an agressive racist and Imperialist state that executes a foreign intervention nearly every years in the last hundred. The idea of the USA as a peaceful state contributing to stable world order is a groos nationalist fiction. As we already, you are insufficiently knowledgeable of your own states long and thoroughly documented history of assasination, torture, invasion and deception that you cannot even name 10 US interventions in Latin America - so I am substantially better informed of the FACTS about your state than you are. Do I have to give you a massive list of American crimes again?
quote: Except of course, that is NOT the world *I* live in - that is the world the US lives in. Just as we saw when the Us turned on its buddy Saddam, having gone from claiming he was one of the virtuous good guys and defenders of dmeocracy to denouncing him as a sociapth. the blind, Orwellian doublethink switch from 100% good to 100% bad; this happens in YOUR political environment, not mine.
quote: Possibly. But not probably, becuase both states regard their leadership and the decisions of its state apparatus as inherently virtuous and unequesionably good.
quote: I'm quite sure he did think about it. In fact, I know he thought about it, because his statement on thw 9/11 strike makes that explicitly clear:
quote: and...
quote: quote: quote: Bin Laden is abundantly clear - America was struck in just vengeance for its crimes. Bin Laden speaks for the free people of the world, albeit in a religious voice. He points out the hypocrisy we are all aware of; he highlights the disregard America exhibits for non-American lives, and the hysteria it falls into when Americans die. He points out that Americans should not expect to live in peace while they wage war and bomb from the skies. While they fund and support and arm the state terrorism of Israel. Fundamentally, Bin Laden is right and the US is wrong, murderous and hypocrticial state that it is.
quote: Ha ha. Of crouse I'm a terrorist apologist - and have been for years. Thats becuase the "terrorists" - by which the West means a peoples army - is usually in the right, and criticism of "terrorists" is invariably hypocritical. Why should I not be proud to challnge that Western hypocrisy? Of course I am. And if you want to start talking about accountability, why don't you state exercising some at home Schraf? Why don't you impeach your war criminal president? Why did you re-elect the mass murderer in the first place? How can you have the outright hypocratical arrogance to denounce terrorists for striking the twin towers while your terrorist state, lead by a war criminal, is openly allied with the terrorist Israeli state, also lead by a war criminal, while providing funds and weapons to aid the Israeli state in killing more civilians? You don't have even the slightest trace of self-awareness, guilt or conscience, do you? And you wonder why I think the brutal US is the most propagandised place in the world, huh.
quote: Ha ha ha - you know I can't prove a negative. But I can point to some of the reports:
quote: Revelation casts doubt on Iraq find | Politics | The Guardian Note how Kay builds his case purely based on allegations of intent, rather than material evidence. He looks for confirmation of his expectations, and lo and behold, he finds them. What a hard job that must be. On Maqy 17th 2004 Fox News reported:
quote: Now, how is it that this is the FIRST FIND of a chemical weapon, if chemical weapons were allegedly found in 2003, huh? And this one is thought to have been an old shell that the IED-planters probably did not even know contained gas. As Scott Ritter, UNCOMS head until 1998, wrote in War on Iraq"If you listen to Richard Butler, biological weapons are a "black hole" about which we know nothing. But a review of the record reveals we actually know quite a bit. We monitored more biological facilities than any other category, inspecting over a thousand sites and repeatedly monitoring several hundred... For Iraq to have biological weapons today they'd have to reconstitute a biological manufacturing base... [the inspectors] blanketed Iraq--every research and development facility, every university, every school, every beer factory: anything that was a potential fermentation capability was inspected--and we never found any evidence of ongoing research and development or retention." The Washington Post wrote, of Desert Fox:
quote: So Schraf, these alleged chemical weapons found in Iraq in 1998 such that it justified Desert Fox are:1) refuted by the head of UNSCOM at the time 2) refuted by the result of Iraq Survey Group 3) not reflected in the targetting list actually used in Desert Fox And we also see from the likes of David Kay that the Us was purposefully applying the worst and most malicious spin it could concoct to any finding in Iraq whatsoever. Desert Fox, Afghanistan and the occupation of Iraq - all based on paranoid, hypocritical and frankly racist assumptions about foreign states. It is America that is in the wrong in all these matters, case closed. And September the 11th was not nearly enough payback, not at all.
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5612 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
I don't remember exactly, but in the period after the terrorist attack many different nations were in the news for breaching WMD rules, like North korea, Iran and Iraq. They were all quite careless about it.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
How strangely unedifying.
TTFN, WK
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contracycle Inactive Member |
Burma gas attack alleged
John Aglionby, South-east Asia correspondentFriday April 22, 2005 The Guardian The Burmese army used chemical weapons in an attack on ethnic Karenni rebels in February, the UK-based rights group Christian Solidarity Worldwide alleges in a report published today. Martin Panter, the organisation's international president, told the Guardian he had interviewed and examined five reported survivors of the February 15 assault on Karenni positions in Nya My, just over the border from the northern Thai town of Mae Hon Son. "I believe there's overwhelming and compelling circumstantial evidence that these soldiers are victims of chemical weapons," he said. "I cannot say exactly what the cocktail of chemicals was but it appears to have contained blister agents, mustard gas and neurological agents." He said the Karenni forces had allegedly been enduring an artillery bombardment for more than a month when, on February 15, a shell exploded with a different sound. "They said there was a strongly pungent acrid yellow vapour," Dr Panter said. "The gas was yellow, tasted like chilli and was hot." The Karenni allegedly told Dr Panter their eyes watered, and they suffered severe nausea and vomiting, coughed up blood and suffered gastro-intestinal illnesses such as diarrhoea and had great difficulty walking for some time. "I have a report from a doctor who examined them five days after the attack and what I saw was completely consistent with what was in that report," he said. --Burma gas attack alleged | World news | The Guardian So now we wait and see what the moral west will do in response. This message has been edited by contracycle, 04-22-2005 07:52 AM
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
quote: Really, Mr. Orangutan, your idea suck. Indonesian authorities are way better in catching terrorists than the US. Almost all participants of the Bali bomb case is now in prison, the top brass in death row. There are some that is still at large but hopefully we'll get them soon. Fathurrahman al-Ghozi has been shot dead in the Philippines. Hambali is under arrest (although not by Indonesian authorities). And while I don't know if Abu Bakar Ba'asyir is guilty or not, at least he's under surveillance. What about the US? 6 years of chasing Osama and still no luck. I say the US should source the job of cracking down terrorists to the Indonesian authorities.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
is that you are the only person to have responded to that message.
The purpose of the message was to try to point out how absolutely absurd the planning, purpose and methodology of the War of Terror really is. I picked Indonesia because several key meetings were held there. The fact is that they were held there because Indonesia has a well developed communications and transportation infrasturcture. I could have as easily picked France, England, Germany, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Mexico, Canada, Portugal, Chile, Argentina, the Philippines and particularly the US. Each country was host and a training camp for the 9-11 terrorists. Notice, Iraq is missing from all of them. It simply was not a significant player, the infrastructure was demolished, communications lousy, it was surrounded by US forces and under constant monitoring for all communications and transportation. Today's terrorists, above all else, want access to basic infrastructure and technology, things not found in undeveloped countries but rather in the developed world. But you are the only person that responded. And we think we have a chance to address the issue. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Tal Member (Idle past 5699 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Instead of invading IRAQ which has not been shown to have played any part in Terrorism Since an organization to fuse information from three independent data streams did not exist last spring, the planners of SILENT VECTOR created one for the exercise. Could the attacks have been detected and thwarted if this type of organization existed prior to 9-11? America had intelligence information of training classes in an old airliner in Salmon Pak, south of Baghdad. At this site, terrorists were trained how to hijack airliners using only short knives. Had this intelligence information been fused with information from the FBI and FAA, America might have had the opportunity to thwart the 9-11 attacks. Source Some info from Iraqi defectors.
After Sabah Khalifa Khodada Alami, an Iraqi military officer, defected from Iraq in 1999 to Turkey. He now lives in Fort Worth, Texas. When he was debriefed, he described his training mission at Salman Pak, a military base about 21 miles from Baghdad that had been used for the testing of secret weapons, including chemical biological warfare agents, and paramilitary training for covert actions. Captain Sabah Khalifa Khodada Alami said that as late as 1998 he trained an elite commando team, Fedayeen Saddam, in airline hijacking and sabotage. Through a translator, Mr. Alami described, according to the Wall street Journal, a daily regimen of exercises on kidnapping, assassination, and -- using a Boeing 707 parked inside the complex -- how to hijack a plane or bus without weapons. He said that a separate group of non-Iraqis were being similarly trained by Saddam's intelligence service, the mukhabarat. Asked about the plane by an interviewer for Front Line, he said "Yes, there's a real whole 707 plane, a whole real plane, standing in the middle of the training area in this camp." Subsequently, a second Iraqi defector, a former intelligence officer who defected in early 2001 , described "Islamicists" training on a Boeing 707 parked in Salman Pak from about 1995 to as recently as September 2000. Neither defector said any efforts were made to hide or conceal the Boeing from satellite photography. And, according to Front Line, a former U.N. inspector who worked for the United Nations said that he saw the fuselage of an airliner at Salman Pak which was smaller than a Boeing. Whatever manufacture and size , there is agreement such a plane was in the Salman Pak complex. Source Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry but that has little to do with why we invaded IRAQ. Taking planes hostage has been standard terrorist tacktics for many, many decades and such sites were built in many locations, including Lybia.
Sorry, but that's really, really weak support. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
Are these the same Iraqi defectors who were shown to be hopelessly unreliable? One 45 minute claim in particular springs to mind.
Iraqi defectors' weapons claims were 'false' This article by Seymour Hersh in the 12 May 2003 New Yorker goes into greater detail about Sabah Khalifa Khodada Alami incident - it appears that what he had to say was completely fabricated (line breaks added by me, to make it readable):
Almost immediately after September 11th, the I.N.C. began to publicize the stories of defectors who claimed that they had information connecting Iraq to the attacks. In an interview on October 14, 2001, conducted jointly by the Times and Frontline, the public-television program, Sabah Khodada, an Iraqi Army captain, said that the September 11th operation was conducted by people who were trained by Saddam, and that Iraq had a program to instruct terrorists in the art of hijacking. Another defector, who was identified only as a retired lieutenant general in the Iraqi intelligence service, said that in 2000 he witnessed Arab students being given lessons in hijacking on a Boeing 707 parked at an Iraqi training camp near the town of Salman Pak, south of Baghdad. In separate interviews with me, however, a former C.I.A. station chief and a former military intelligence analyst said that the camp near Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for counter-terrorism training. In the mid-eighties, Islamic terrorists were routinely hijacking aircraft. In 1986, an Iraqi airliner was seized by pro-Iranian extremists and crashed, after a hand grenade was triggered, killing at least sixty-five people. (At the time, Iran and Iraq were at war, and America favored Iraq.) Iraq then sought assistance from the West, and got what it wanted from Britain’s MI6. The C.I.A. offered similar training in counter-terrorism throughout the Middle East. We were helping our allies everywhere we had a liaison, the former station chief told me. Inspectors recalled seeing the body of an airplanewhich appeared to be used for counter-terrorism trainingwhen they visited a biological-weapons facility near Salman Pak in 1991, ten years before September 11th. It is, of course, possible for such a camp to be converted from one purpose to another. The former C.I.A. official noted, however, that terrorists would not practice on airplanes in the open. That’s Hollywood rinky-dink stuff, the former agent said. They train in basements. You don’t need a real airplane to practice hijacking. The 9/11 terrorists went to gyms. But to take one back you have to practice on the real thing. Salman Pak was overrun by American troops on April 6th. Apparently, neither the camp nor the former biological facility has yielded evidence to substantiate the claims made before the war. A former Bush Administration intelligence official recalled a case in which Chalabi’s group, working with the Pentagon, produced a defector from Iraq who was interviewed overseas by an agent from the D.I.A. The agent relied on an interpreter supplied by Chalabi’s people. Last summer, the D.I.A. report, which was classified, was leaked. In a detailed account, the London Times described how the defector had trained with Al Qaeda terrorists in the late nineteen-nineties at secret camps in Iraq, how the Iraqis received instructions in the use of chemical and biological weapons, and how the defector was given a new identity and relocated. A month later, however, a team of C.I.A. agents went to interview the man with their own interpreter. He says, ‘No, that’s not what I said,’ the former intelligence official told me. He said, ‘I worked at a fedayeen camp; it wasn’t Al Qaeda.’ He never saw any chemical or biological training. Afterward, the former official said, the C.I.A. sent out a piece of paper saying that this information was incorrect. They put it in writing. But the C.I.A. rebuttal, like the original report, was classified. I remember wondering whether this one would leak and correct the earlier, invalid leak. Of course, it didn’t. The former intelligence official went on, One of the reasons I left was my sense that they were using the intelligence from the C.I.A. and other agencies only when it fit their agenda. They didn’t like the intelligence they were getting, and so they brought in people to write the stuff. They were so crazed and so far out and so difficult to reason withto the point of being bizarre. Dogmatic, as if they were on a mission from God. He added, If it doesn’t fit their theory, they don’t want to accept it. PE This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 04-26-2005 12:35 PM
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Tal Member (Idle past 5699 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Sorry but that has little to do with why we invaded IRAQ. Sure it does. And how is Lybia nowadays? Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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Tal Member (Idle past 5699 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
In separate interviews with me, however, a former C.I.A. station chief and a former military intelligence analyst said that the camp near Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for counter-terrorism training. Oh, he didn't give the name of the former CIA station chief? Hrm. Good source. A guy told me. I posted 2 sources, the defector was one. The 911 commission hearings was the other.
America had intelligence information of training classes in an old airliner in Salmon Pak, south of Baghdad. At this site, terrorists were trained how to hijack airliners using only short knives. Pretty cut and dry there. Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
You're reaching. What reason would you have for believing or even knowing that Khodada was who he said he was or that he was telling the truth. Some guy told you?
posted 2 sources, the defector was one. The 911 commission hearings was the other. Good, so now we know you're no longer prepared to defend the claims of the Iraqi defector we can move on to what you quote of the 911 Commission.
America had intelligence information of training classes in an old airliner in Salmon Pak, south of Baghdad. At this site, terrorists were trained how to hijack airliners using only short knives. Intelligence information? That would be some guy told another guy? Sounds bizarrely like exactly the same source, no? Everything here is consistent with Hersh's report. Its a pretty weak argument to ignore Hersh's article because his sources are anonymous (as they were for his Abu Ghraib article, if memory serves me correctly) and then seek refuge in "intelligence information" which has since been discredited. PE This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 04-26-2005 01:12 PM
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