Independent Historical Corroboration for Biblical Events

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Originally posted by Me:

Mention of a 6 year old leads me to consider the issues of understanding.

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A Grade 6 pupil is about 11-12 years old, not 6. However, while a 12 year old understands more than a 6 year old, I still think that your argument holds to a large extent. Also, when it comes to religion, most children simply repeat what they have heard others (whom they trust) saying, often without fully understanding the impact or implication of the argument or the assersion.------------------
compmage

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Originally posted by compmage:

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Originally posted by Me:

Mention of a 6 year old leads me to consider the issues of understanding.

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A Grade 6 pupil is about 11-12 years old, not 6.

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..when it comes to religion, most children simply repeat what they have heard others (whom they trust) saying, often without fully understanding the impact or implication of the argument or the assersion.

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Sorry, I was guessing. British Public Schools often do not use a grade or year designator, but odd class names like Upper Bench, Shell, or Remove.I agree with your second point. Repeating what others have said without understanding (or investigation) is not confined to religion, nor, alas, to children. It is common everywhere, and seems to be particularly prevalent amongst the Press.

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Originally posted by blitz77:
I'm afraid David Rohl disagrees with you

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I can see no disagreement. I said that the flood story was in current belief a legend which does NOT mean it is completely untrue. I say this in the next sentence! It means that it may have been based on a true incident but that additional stories have been added, and these may be true or untrue.I further stated that some archaeologists have proposed that the initial incident may have been 5-10k BC, mentioning the Black Sea inundation. So they have. I have not seen Rohl's evidence for 3k BC, and would love a cite, but unless he is able to prove that his flood is definitely the basis for the story, his is also just a guess. That is the nature of legends. If Rohl disagrees with anyone, it is William Ryan and Walter Pitman, but I suspect that they would just agree that either site might be possible. Here is a cite for you, but a simple search on Black Sea Inundation will turn up lots of data, including research suggesting that the Black Sea story might be incorrect. So it might!National Geographic - 404

Read in context. In 18:18 it says that during his lifetime Absalom raised a monument to himself-and wrote that that he THOUGHT he would have no sons. It is not as if someone else wrote that Absalom had no sons, its just that earlier in his life he thought he wouldn't.

Let me be more specific; he says that the flood happened during the Uruk period; about 4000 - 3100 BC on the conventional chronology.[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-23-2002]

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Originally posted by blitz77:
Read in context. In 18:18 it says that during his lifetime Absalom raised a monument to himself-and wrote that that he THOUGHT he would have no sons. It is not as if someone else wrote that Absalom had no sons, its just that earlier in his life he thought he wouldn't.

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Read in context it says no such thing.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by blitz77:
Let me be more specific; he says that the flood happened during the Uruk period; about 4000 - 3100 BC on the conventional chronology.

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[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-23-2002]

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So that puts us right back at.... where... ground zero?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

You don't need the context anyway because it says from where you quoted (18:18) "During his life-time Absalom had taken a pillar and erected it in the King's Valley as a monument to himself, for he thought 'I have no son to carry on the memory of my name.'"--NIV, 2 Sam 18:18[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-23-2002]

lol... I haven't got that book (legend: the test of time) here; I'll have to borrow it and take a look at it on its section on this. I did that from memory,the Uruk period according to the new chronology is a few hundred years later. But it gives you more time, and he backs it up using both the Biblical king list, Sumerian king list, the epics of Ziusudra, Atrahasis, and Gilgamesh XI, Dionysis, Osiris and archaeologist's reports.[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-23-2002]

Which portions don't you believe are true?

If people want to know more about some of the books by David Rohl, this is a summary what they are about-(using Debate Topics: Historical)A Test of Time: From Myth to History-Rohl restructures the conventional chronology of Egyptian history, synthesizing it with the Israelite history and chronology. Using the new chronology, he identifies Ramesses II with the biblical Shishak. For King Solomon, he relocates the Solomonic period to the Late Bronze Age. This was an age of wealth and prosperity in the Levant, reflecting the biblical narrative of the wealth of Solomon's reign. Previously, Solomon was placed in a period of general impoverishment - the Early Iron Age.
For Saul, Akhenaten was the 18th Dynasty ruler who sought to change the entire religion and culture of Egypt to the worship of one deity, the sun-god Re, in the form of the Aten sun disc. Under his rule, however, Egypt became militarily weak and was brought to the brink of revolution. The superpower of the day was crippled, allowing a new power base to emerge in the Levant under the rule of firstly Saul, then David. This culminated in the reign of Solomon, with enough consolidated power to force a marriage alliance between himself and a later pharaoh's daughter. Using the amarna tablets, he shows that Saul is Labayu.For David, before he became king his band was a group of wanderers-as mercenaries-they enter the service of Achish, king of Gath, who quarters them in Gath. This is identical to the habiru in the amarna tablets. From the tablets-""Say to Yanhamu, my lord: Message of Mutbaal, your servant. I fall at the feet of my lord. How can it be said in your presence, Mutbaal has fled. He has hidden Ayab'? How can the king of Pella flee from the commissioner, agent of the king, his lord? As the king, my lord, lives, as the king my lord lives, I swear Ayab is not in Pella. In fact, he has been in the field (i.e. on campaign) for 2 months. Just ask Benenima. Just ask Dadua. Just ask Yishuya." linguists have ascertained that Ayab is none other than Joab, commander of David's Hebrew army, Benenima is Baanah, one of Israel's chieftains, Dadua is a form of the name David, king of Judah and Yishuya is the name Jesse (Heb. Yishay), the father of David.Moses-According to Artapanus (3rd century BC), a pharoah was persecuting the Israelites, named Palmanothes.Prince Mousos grew up to administer the land on behalf of this pharaoh. He led a military campaign against the Ethiopians who were invading Egypt; however, upon his return, Khenephres grew jealous of his popularity. Mousos then fled to Arabia to return when Khenephres died and lead the Israelites to freedom. Also, Avaris was built on a series of sandy hillocks to avoid the annual floodwaters of the Nile. The people who lived in Avaris, however, were not Egyptian but Asiatic Palestinian or Syrian.
The finds there included numerous pottery fragments of Palestinian origin. Several factors about the graves were particularly fascinating:-
65% of the burials were of children under 18 months of age, the normal for this period being 20-30%. Recorded in Exodus 1:22 is the killing of male Israelite children.A disproportionately high number of adult women as opposed to adult men are buried here, again pointing to the slaughter of male Israelite babies.
For the tenth plague, I'll just quote the site-

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The Tenth Plague to be sent on Egypt just before the Exodus was the plague on the first-born, recorded in Exodus 12:29,30. At the end of stratum G/1 at Tell ed-Daba or the ancient city of Avaris (p.293), archaeologists found shallow burial pits into which the victims of some terrible disaster had been thrown. These death pits were not carefully organised internments; the bodies were simply thrown in on top of one another.

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Joshua and the city of Jericho-

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The walls of Jericho had indeed come tumbling down' (Joshua 6) and they had in many places filled the defensive ditch at the foot of the steep glacis slope, so enabling the Israelite troops to storm the city. Also found in Jericho were many large earthen jars of carbonised or burnt grain, indicating that the city had been captured rapidly and not after a long siege and famine, as there were lots of supplies. The city, after a sudden capture, had been burned to the ground as is recorded in Joshua 6:24. A layer of ash, in places up to a metre thick, was found, indicating the scale of the fire.

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Joseph and the famine-

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Do we have any evidence of famine during the reign of Amenemhat III? Remarkably, we do! The Egyptians depended on the annual flooding of the Nile to irrigate and fertilise the Black Land' of the Nile Valley and Delta. When the flood waters subsided, the enriched soil was then ploughed and sown for a reliable harvest. The German Egyptologist Karl Richard Lepsius, in 1844, worked at the Second Cataract of the Nile, at the ancient sites of the twin fortresses of Semna and Kumma. Here he found records for the heights of the Nile floods during the reign of Amenemhat III. The average height was eleven to twelve metres above the normal river level, which would have given a good harvest.

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However, by the twelfth year of his reign, the floods recorded were around seventeen metres; this increased the silt deposited on the Delta and therefore gave richer, more abundant crops - the years of plenty'. This continued for seven to eight years. Then there is recorded a series of extra-high floods averaging 21 metres. This would have brought down three or four times the normal volume of water to the Delta. By the time the floodwaters receded, it would have been too late in the year to plant the crops, so resulting in a number of years of famine! It is interesting to note that Pharaoh's dream, as recorded in Genesis 41:1-4, tells of seven fat and seven thin cows, representing the years of plenty and famine; both came up' from the Nile, indicating that the Nile would have something to do with the famine! The grain produced in the Nile Delta was exported all over the Levant, so it is little wonder that the rest of the area suffered during the famine and Joseph's brothers came to buy grain in Egypt.

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The pharaoh buying all the land, and evidence for Joseph-

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Around the time of Amenemhat III, the power of the pharaohs was severely compromised by a number of baronies or local chieftains who controlled large parts of Egypt. Being quite rich, they could afford quite elaborate tombs to be buried in. Near the village of Beni Hasan, 39 of these tombs were found cut into a cliff face; the last dated to a period approximately 20 years before Amenemhat III. In this tomb, that of a chieftain called Khnumhotep III, was found a scene depicting a trading party of Asiatics arriving in Egypt (p.292). This party is very similar to the Midianite caravaneers to whom Joseph's brothers sold him when he was brought to Egypt (Genesis 37). The inscription below one of these reliefs reads, The chief of the hill country, Abishai' - a good biblical name! These caravaneers are wearing very colourful garments, again showing that it was the custom in the Levant at this time to wear such colourful clothes, cf. Joseph's coat of many colours, presented to him by his father Jacob!
During the reign of Amenemhat III, these local chieftains or nomarchs ceased to build their tombs, indicating that they had had their power removed. At the same time, Amenemhat III rose to be one of the most powerful pharaohs of the 12th Dynasty. The reason for this is recorded in Genesis 47:13-21 where even the wealthy were forced to sell their land and possessions to Pharaoh in exchange for grain during the famine. So, the power of the local bigwigs was broken and Pharaoh reigned supreme in Egypt thanks to the works of Joseph.

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Amenemhat's pyramid in which he was buried at Hawara stands beside the ruins of one of the most impressive buildings of the ancient world - the Egyptian Labyrinth - built during his reign. This has thousands of storerooms and the reason for its building can be determined under David Rohl's new chronology. This was Joseph's administration centre, set up to organise the distribution of grain during the famine. It was only fitting that Pharaoh should wish to be buried beside the very means by which he had obtained absolute power in Egypt. Also nearby is an impressive water work undertaken during the time of Amenemhat III. A canal from the Nile to Lake Moeris (Birket Karun today) in the region of Faiyum was built to channel excess water from the annual Nile flood into this basin to help lower the Delta flood waters. Its modern name is Bahr Yussef - the waterway of Joseph! All these can now be looked at as the building works undertaken under the supervision of Joseph the Israelite.

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Legend: The Genesis of Time-Rohl proposes that Eden and its garden was between Lakes Van and Urmin and the Caspian Sea, with Nod on its east. Then he claims the ancestors of the Sumerians migrated in the 6th millennium BC from this "Eden" to Mesopotamia, establishing Sumerian culture there, and identical with biblical Shem. The Mesopotamian and biblical Flood, he sets in the late 4th millennium BC. In part three, Rohl brings Sumerian traders to East Africa (Punt & Sudan--"Kush"), and Egypt, becoming founders of Pharaonic Egypt, using cultural links c.3000BC. He correlates the Sumerian King List, Biblical King List, Ziusudra, Gilgamesh, Noah, Dionysus and Osiris.A new book coming out this year by David Rohl called "The Lost Testament" follows the sequence of events from the rise of Neolithic civilization, through Noah, Abraham and the sojourn in Egypt, to the fall of Jericho, the dual kingdoms of the Promised Land and lastly, exile in Babylon.[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-24-2002]

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Originally posted by Me:

I agree with your second point. Repeating what others have said without understanding (or investigation) is not confined to religion, nor, alas, to children. It is common everywhere, and seems to be particularly prevalent amongst the Press.

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I think that repeating what others have said is especially prevelent in strong religious circles. More so amongst children who can't read or haven't bothered reading the Bible. You will often find them repeating parts of sermons that they have heard.Unfortunately this could give them a false sense of security when it comes to later life and the discussion turns to religion. They are so used to being able to repeat what others have said and winning (simply because the children they are used to arguing against didn't have the knowledge to point out their errors), that when backed into a corner (or sometimes right off the bat) they try and use the argument from authority or start sprouting Bible versus.I recall a discussion where a creationists was called on an argument from authority and his replay was something like "It would only be wrong if he (the authority) didn't know anything about the subject."------------------
compmage

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Originally posted by blitz77:
Legend: The Genesis of Time-Rohl proposes that Eden and its garden was between Lakes Van and Urmin and the Caspian Sea, with Nod on its east. Then he claims the ancestors of the Sumerians migrated in the 6th millennium BC from this "Eden" to Mesopotamia, establishing Sumerian culture there, and identical with biblical Shem. The Mesopotamian and biblical Flood, he sets in the late 4th millennium BC.

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Hang on now, Sumer was PRE-flood?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by blitz77:
Which portions don't you believe are true?

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Hmm. It is hard to divide a legend into definitely true and definitely false parts - most of it is a kind of grey. As I said before, noone has any trouble believing that floods happen - but there is no evidence that any particular flood is the one mentioned in the bible. Rohl is simply finding evidence for a flood (as many other archaeologists have done before), and suggesting that this might be the one. So it might. It is easy to suggest things which are incapable of proof.It is characteristic of legends, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that all sorts of other stories get associated with them. So the flood story is probably an amalgam of several stories. Rohl's flood could easily be one of them.The bits that seem to be false to my mind are:the concept that the flood was sent to punish the wicked.the concept that a boat could be built to carry all existing living things (except fishes!), breeding pairs of all these animals collected, and the whole vessel loaded, launched and operated by a few persons (7 or 8, I think). A few cows and sheep - yes.the concept that the entire world was inundated, including the tops of the mountains. I think that the original story mentions a water depth - was it 15 cubits? - which is insufficient to cover a small hill.the concept that the rainbow was invented as an indicator of an agreement that there should be no more world-wide floods.Does that cover your request?

Not sure what impression I have given here, but
I tend to agree ... there may be aspects recorded within
the bible which bear relation to real events and persons.That doesn't make the entire bible literally true/correct.Since this discussion is about the orgin of diversity of
life I guess we should focuss on the accuracy of Genesis.This largely comes down to verifying the Great Flood (which in
itself doesn't verify the whole of Genesis, but hey-ho!)And yes, the version of Noah's flood in KJV does say that the
waters rose 15 cubits to cover the mountains.