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Author Topic:   Historical Plausibility of Paul's Story
imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 46 of 64 (438834)
12-06-2007 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-10-2007 5:24 PM


Concerning Saul of Tarsis
Out of all the Apostles, I never would have expected Paul/Saul of Tarsis would be the one questioned historically speaking, but he is credited for writting 13 of the books found in the new testiment. But then this isn't the first time his validity has been questioned, and probly not the last. Pauls writings are considered to be some of the earliest manusctripts. Saul of Tarsis was both a Roman citizen and a Jew.
The book of Acts was written down by Luke (from the gospel of Luke) who has been noted as 'a historian of the highest caliber.'
God bless you and keep reading.
Edited by imageinvisible, : removing text

21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon [all] four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22 [Even] these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 11-10-2007 5:24 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by AdminPhat, posted 12-06-2007 12:07 PM imageinvisible has not replied
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 12-06-2007 12:19 PM imageinvisible has not replied
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 12-06-2007 1:43 PM imageinvisible has not replied
 Message 50 by Force, posted 12-08-2007 11:07 PM imageinvisible has replied
 Message 52 by IamJoseph, posted 12-09-2007 12:40 AM imageinvisible has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 64 (438839)
12-06-2007 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by imageinvisible
12-06-2007 12:03 PM


Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
Concerning your post and the Forum Guidelines. may I bring up rule #6: Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

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  • This message is a reply to:
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    Brian
    Member (Idle past 4959 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 48 of 64 (438846)
    12-06-2007 12:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by imageinvisible
    12-06-2007 12:03 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    Out of all the Apostles, I never would have expected Paul/Saul of Tarsis would be the one questioned historically speaking,
    We are only questioning the historical plausibility of the events surrounding his 'conversion' experience.
    but he is credited for writting 13 of the books found in the new testiment.
    He hasnt been credited with 13 books for quite some time now, last I heard only 6 or 7 books are now credited to him.
    The book of Acts was written down by Luke (from the gospel of Luke) who has been noted as 'a historian of the highest caliber.'
    Only by non-historians. There are some real problems with the 'history' of this book. The census, for example, is riddled with historical errors.
    He was executed in Rome, under Nero, in about A.D. 67.
    Well, truth be told, no one knows how, where, or even when, Paul was killed.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by imageinvisible, posted 12-06-2007 12:03 PM imageinvisible has not replied

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 49 of 64 (438887)
    12-06-2007 1:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by imageinvisible
    12-06-2007 12:03 PM


    Re: Concerning Saulgh of Tarsis
    imageinvisible writes:
    And God demonstrates the infallable nature of His Word in Lev 11:20,23 where by He says "Though shalt not eat the praying mantids"
    Funny how God demonstrates His infallibility by misspelling "thou".

    Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by imageinvisible, posted 12-06-2007 12:03 PM imageinvisible has not replied

      
    Force
    Inactive Member


    Message 50 of 64 (439513)
    12-08-2007 11:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by imageinvisible
    12-06-2007 12:03 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    bump..
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
    Edited by tthzr3, : red font
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.

    Thank you

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by imageinvisible, posted 12-06-2007 12:03 PM imageinvisible has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 53 by imageinvisible, posted 12-09-2007 8:29 PM Force has replied
     Message 55 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 2:37 AM Force has not replied

      
    IamJoseph
    Member (Idle past 3668 days)
    Posts: 2822
    Joined: 06-30-2007


    Message 51 of 64 (439541)
    12-09-2007 12:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
    12-06-2007 12:19 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    quote:
    We are only questioning the historical plausibility of the events surrounding his 'conversion' experience.
    Is the fact that Paul was expelled from the christian-jewish sect in Jerusalem, any impact on what is described as conversion? Prior to Paul, there was no doctrines or belief of later christianity, which better accords with a new religion happening here, than one which he converted to.
    I note also, that Paul and jesus never met, and the people of the region, aside from [now called] Europeans, never agreed with Paul - including the Arab-muslims of this region. Thus Paul, not jesus, was the breakdown of christianity from its mother religion. The advocations of Paul were also an emulation of a war between Hellenist Greeks and Jews 250 years previously: the same doctrines were made, and rejected by the Jews.
    This makes everything attributed as coming from a jewish Jesus incredibly non-credible, being said only by third party reportings, well outside its spacetime. There is no evidence the current christian doctrines were said by, or condoned by, Jesus, or any other jew/s in all recorded history or archeology; only its non-confusing reverse is evidential.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by Brian, posted 12-06-2007 12:19 PM Brian has not replied

      
    IamJoseph
    Member (Idle past 3668 days)
    Posts: 2822
    Joined: 06-30-2007


    Message 52 of 64 (439547)
    12-09-2007 12:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by imageinvisible
    12-06-2007 12:03 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    quote:
    I could continue but the life of this man has been well documented and researched [and debated] countless times. The information 'is' out there it's just a matter of finding it.
    I don't think so. All the references quoted are from the NT, from a different spacetime and motive. The quotes about the jews wanting to kill Paul is not related to christianity, but his advocations which directly contradicted the core beliefs of judaism held for 2000 years. Here, the notion of pharisee, etc also cannot relate to their being overly strict; there was no sector in Judaism which agreed with Paul, as there cannot be any Judaism, nor any sector of it, with Paul. Also, that Paul was accepted like a wild fire, is only related to peoples outside Judaism, mainly there was an already waiting audience for what Paul said: he could not have failed if he tried.
    This amalgamation proposal was already preceded with the greeks, who became very closely attached to the OT after their translation of it in 300 BCE [The septuagint]. They proposed, that Moses be made a universeal figure for all humanity, and the Jews accepted it. This sublime notion fell down because the greeks also wanted the God of Zeus and israel to become melted and form one new image for worship - which contradicted the core laws of judaism. It could never succeed when Paul made such proposals. In 70 CE, all this came to a head, when Jews became the only nation which refused Rome's decree to worship a divine emperor in their temple, resulting in the greatest defense of a faith in all recorded history: over a million Jews gave their lives, country and Jerusalem, fighting to the last man standing in the temple and at Masada.
    What is required, and does not appear to exist, is a shred of hard copy, contemporanous relic, such as a writing manuscript or scroll, preferably in Hebrew - agreeing with anything stated here of Paul and the Pharisees. This was a time when writings was commonplace and copious: Josephus, Dead Sea Scrolls, Jewish writings, Roman writings, etc. There is no excuse for the total vacansee of proof at this time - except that the Gospel writings occured in another spacetime than what it is describing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by imageinvisible, posted 12-06-2007 12:03 PM imageinvisible has not replied

      
    imageinvisible
    Member (Idle past 5918 days)
    Posts: 132
    From: Arlington, Texas, US
    Joined: 12-03-2007


    Message 53 of 64 (439694)
    12-09-2007 8:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 50 by Force
    12-08-2007 11:07 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    What contradiction? Please elaborate.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by Force, posted 12-08-2007 11:07 PM Force has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Force
    Inactive Member


    Message 54 of 64 (439715)
    12-09-2007 10:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 53 by imageinvisible
    12-09-2007 8:29 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    bump...
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.

    Thank you

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by imageinvisible, posted 12-09-2007 8:29 PM imageinvisible has not replied

      
    imageinvisible
    Member (Idle past 5918 days)
    Posts: 132
    From: Arlington, Texas, US
    Joined: 12-03-2007


    Message 55 of 64 (439723)
    12-10-2007 2:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 50 by Force
    12-08-2007 11:07 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    they heard the sound but did not see anyone
    saw the light, but they did not understand the voice
    This is your 'contradiction'?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by Force, posted 12-08-2007 11:07 PM Force has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 4:14 AM imageinvisible has not replied

      
    imageinvisible
    Member (Idle past 5918 days)
    Posts: 132
    From: Arlington, Texas, US
    Joined: 12-03-2007


    Message 56 of 64 (439728)
    12-10-2007 4:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by imageinvisible
    12-10-2007 2:37 AM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    Ok, hypothetically speaking here, lets suppose he wasn't being completely honest. Here is a guy who is going around the Jewish comunity, claiming to know the Messiah, and claiming that the Messiah sent him to preach His gospel. First question; Did any of you read the Old Testiment or the Torah? Remember the Mosaic Laws? Do you know what God says to do to a false prophet? It was an edict From God to stone people (specificaly other Jews) who preached any God but the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Here you have a man who the Jews would have concidered to be twisting the word of God, a false prophet. Being a prophet is a bad enough gig for a Jew at any rate, tell a lie and get stoned, tell the truth and get stoned, these guys where hard on their prophets, but they where even harder on the false prophets. Yet here is a man going around preaching and teaching the salvation of men, not just for the Jews but for the gentiles as well, by grace, through faith in Christ Jesus, whom the Jews did not accept as the Messiah. Whether he's telling the truth or not, he's K.O.S. (Kill On Sight) If anyone has any doubts about this I'd like to see them march into the middle of Tel Aviv or Jerusalem and start preaching Christ as the Messiah. Ten buck says they'll be throwing rocks (if not granades) inside of ten minutes. Furthermore there are atleast 2 accounts (one his own and another from a later date) that say he was beaten more than once, stoned more than once, imprisoned more than once, and he was probly even killed for what he was teaching. Why, in the world, would anyone go through all of that trouble if it was a lie? Not to mention all of the other Apostles who where put to death for teaching Christ as the Messiah. Granted there are probably quit a few cases where someone might be willing to die for a lie, provided they do not know it is a lie? But the apostles, Paul included where supossed to have seen, and in most cases to have traveled with Jesus throughout his minestry, and after His resurection. These people would have KNOWN that they where lieing, if in fact they where. The number of people I can name off the top of my head that would be willing to die for something that they KNOW is a lie...(for something that doesn't implicate them in another crime)...frankly I can't think of one. What purpose is there in it? So that some potentate 3, 4, or 5 hundred years down the road can say, "give to the church, support the ministry?" Come on now, there are only two possibilities, either they where lieing, and knew that they where lieing, or they where telling the truth as best they could about what they saw. There really is no middle ground here.
    At any rate, keep digging.

    21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon [all] four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
    22 [Even] these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 2:37 AM imageinvisible has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by Force, posted 12-10-2007 5:46 PM imageinvisible has replied

      
    Force
    Inactive Member


    Message 57 of 64 (439862)
    12-10-2007 5:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by imageinvisible
    12-10-2007 4:14 AM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    ...bump
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
    Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.

    Thank you

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 4:14 AM imageinvisible has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by imageinvisible, posted 12-11-2007 3:25 AM Force has replied
     Message 64 by AdminPD, posted 12-17-2007 1:34 PM Force has not replied

      
    imageinvisible
    Member (Idle past 5918 days)
    Posts: 132
    From: Arlington, Texas, US
    Joined: 12-03-2007


    Message 58 of 64 (439976)
    12-11-2007 3:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 57 by Force
    12-10-2007 5:46 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    they heard the sound but did not see anyone
    saw the light, but they did not understand the voice
    All you have here is that his companions heard the sound but didn't understand the voice and they saw a light but did not see anyone. Sounds quite specific an acount to me. unless you have more.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by Force, posted 12-10-2007 5:46 PM Force has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by Force, posted 12-11-2007 3:58 PM imageinvisible has replied

      
    Force
    Inactive Member


    Message 59 of 64 (440120)
    12-11-2007 3:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by imageinvisible
    12-11-2007 3:25 AM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    imageinvisible,
    I am actually going to refute the idea that ACTS 9:3-9 contradicts Acts 22:6-9. I have recently realized that the information provided in those chapters and verses above is ambiguous.

    Thank you

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by imageinvisible, posted 12-11-2007 3:25 AM imageinvisible has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    imageinvisible
    Member (Idle past 5918 days)
    Posts: 132
    From: Arlington, Texas, US
    Joined: 12-03-2007


    Message 60 of 64 (440195)
    12-11-2007 8:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Force
    12-11-2007 3:58 PM


    Re: Concerning Saul of Tarsis
    No. Thank You. ambiguous...equivocal, obscure, recondite, abstruse, vague, cryptic, enigmatic....yeah that fits.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Force, posted 12-11-2007 3:58 PM Force has not replied

      
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