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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 91 of 280 (321501)
06-14-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
06-14-2006 3:38 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
I know it's very difficult for those looking out to understand but
quote:
He even went so far as allowing himself to be crucified. Its a measure of how serious this gig is.
is entirely the last line of persuasion you want to use on disbelievers in order to convince them of the "rightness" of the christian religion.
It's one of the aspects of the christian religion that only seems to make sense when you are a christian and are immersed in the culture. I don't want to get into a long side road about it but honesly I've never seen a christian explain in any way that does not have the unconvinced or even the "wanting to be convinced" saying "huh makes no sense". As a recruitment tactic it always seems to have entirely the opposite effect than intended.
(Not wanting to get into a long debate about that particular theology point but I'm always mystified why that one is trotted in the context of trying to explain the relevence of the christian religion. I understand it's importance within the religion but not as it's deployed here within the context of this conversation).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 3:38 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 4:10 PM CK has replied
 Message 125 by nator, posted 06-15-2006 7:49 PM CK has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 92 of 280 (321505)
06-14-2006 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
06-14-2006 3:38 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
this pretty much sums why I'm not a christian.
I find it comical that anyone could subscribe to this load of crap.
Basically you are saying that god is an asshole and that we have to kiss his ass or he will send us to hell.
Dude, I wouldn't do that to someone and I would think I should expect more from some god than I do from myself.
You are also saying that if we don't believe in this junk that we are spiritually dead.... or could it be that it is actually BS? Wow, what a concept.
This entire line of thinking is full of judgementalism and hubris which should have no place in anything truly spiritual
Edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 93 of 280 (321506)
06-14-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by CK
06-14-2006 3:54 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
but I'm always mystified
1 Cor 2:14 was written for many people. And you're one of 'em.
Given Gods justice and wrath and love must all be satisfied, the cross seems to me to be the most obvious of all places where that would happen. More the fulcrum of Christianity that "that particular theology". Who roused you from your iano-tracking slumber to rise to that one. Uncle Screwtape?
Really Charles, if you want to dazzle me you really must surprise and delight me on occasion. At the moment however you have all the predictability of a nuclear timepiece
As a recruitment tactic
As if you knew the first thing about it. (genuine LOL)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by CK, posted 06-14-2006 3:54 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by CK, posted 06-14-2006 4:13 PM iano has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 94 of 280 (321508)
06-14-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by iano
06-14-2006 4:10 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
It was just meant as a general comment and not a dig at you in particular or the version of christianity that you proscribe to. However if you want to see some other motivation, I guess that's your business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 4:10 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 4:21 PM CK has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 95 of 280 (321509)
06-14-2006 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-14-2006 4:05 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
iano writes:
Technically you have a dead spirit. Born with its heart stopped.
=SNCYou are also saying that if we don't believe in this junk that we are spiritually dead
If you can resolve the above contradiction I will renounce my faith here on EvC.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 4:18 PM iano has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 280 (321512)
06-14-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by iano
06-14-2006 3:40 PM


Not another Iano preaching thread!
Ian, please let people talk in this thread without preaching to everyone of them!
Edited by Phat, : title

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 97 of 280 (321513)
06-14-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
06-14-2006 3:38 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
I for one would like you to answer Youko's point regarding free will, I have raised this point with you many times and your usual tactic comes straight into play: dodge/weave/analogise/distract.
You keep talking of free will, free will to make a choice:
a)God
or
b)No God.
You analogise using the blind man story, and ignore the obvious gaping holes in this analogy.
-It is my understanding that freedom to chose requires having ALL THE RELEVANT INFORMATION to make that choice. INFORMATION.. not hearsay, not stories, not ancient questionable texts. REAL INFORMATION.
-You yourself state and have stated that in out fallen condition we are UNABLE to discern information or evidence correctly,
i.e. We cannot make the correct choices without God making them for us (Deciding to save us).
Firstly: We do not have all the information, as Youko pointed out, If god made himself undeniably known to us we would then have the CHOICE to accept or reject him.. 'Free will' still intact, this should be no problem to you. (Or does your 'free will' only apply to choosing to believe without evidence? Does this mean that you have now lost your free will given that you have been saved and have had undeniable evidence of god?)
Secondly: Even if God made himself known to each and everyone of us, your teachings state that we are unable to choose because we are fallen or flawed. If you give 'free will' to a person who is unable to properly excercise that free will, what freedom do they really have?
Thirdly: If your faith is to be believed, free will in itself is a myth, God knows what will happen, he is outside of time, we are merely playing out what he knows will happen. Given this Predestination, I have the illusion of choice, but in truth there is only one path which can be followed, the one which Your God can see and knows to be true. (we have been through this and disagree)
If you choose to respond to this post I would appreciate as direct as possible responses to these three points.. Please leave out the parent-child analogies, please leave out the leading question as a response tactics. simply address the points. And if your response is going to be along the lines of "well we couldn't possibly understand what god's plan is" don't bother... please.
to summarise: (the engineer in me likes to strip things down to the important points)
1) Free will is an Illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.
2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all.
3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play.
Edited by Creavolution, : frowny face to colon and bracket

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Replies to this message:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 98 of 280 (321514)
06-14-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by iano
06-14-2006 4:14 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
I don't see a contradiction there.
I really don't. the two sentences (barring the formattting error) appear to be perfectly congruent.
(thats the third post in this thread that used that word )
Maybe this is one of those things that I am blind to

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AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 280 (321515)
06-14-2006 4:19 PM


Stay on topic
STOP
Here is the topic, as stated in the OP:
What have you learned concerning your overall views about Religion in general and God, specifically?
Everyone is allowed to comment here, be ye atheist, theist, deist, or MEist.
This is a thread for presenting your own opinions and comments. It is not a thread for debating those opinions and comments. And it is not a thread for preaching.


Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 100 of 280 (321516)
06-14-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by CK
06-14-2006 4:13 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
It was just meant as a general comment and not a dig at you in particular or the version of christianity that you proscribe to. However if you want to see some other motivation, I guess that's your business.
But you already stated (a couple of weeks ago?)your motivation for posting at EvC. And it had nothing to do with debate. Your position was there was no point in debate because people had already made up their minds. You even got a Potm for it. "Fishing for lurkers who might be swimming by" using psychological techniques - or some such thing
Why should anyone think your motive has changed?
However, if you have genuinely recanted of that then I'll follow with interest your engaging in sustained debate which will include occasional 20-40 sentence posts. In time perhaps we might even engage each other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by CK, posted 06-14-2006 4:13 PM CK has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 101 of 280 (321517)
06-14-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Heathen
06-14-2006 4:17 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
All questions seconded Crevo.
I would like just for once to get a straight answer to these question.
This is just more of the same evasiveness that made me abandon religion in the first place and makes me more glad that I did for each passing day.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 4:28 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
Sour
Member (Idle past 2247 days)
Posts: 63
From: I don't know but when I find out there will be trouble. (Portsmouth UK)
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 102 of 280 (321518)
06-14-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by crashfrog
06-14-2006 3:30 PM


Cool, I hoped that was what you meant Crash.

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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 103 of 280 (321519)
06-14-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by AdminNWR
06-14-2006 4:19 PM


Re: Stay on topic
Sorry AdminNWR
Guess we got a bit carried away.
I did try to stop the drift a couple of times earlier but alas it was to no avail.
For my part I shall cease and desist the OT stuff immediately.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by AdminNWR, posted 06-14-2006 4:19 PM AdminNWR has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 104 of 280 (321520)
06-14-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 4:23 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
Sorry NWR. Lost the run of myself (but I weren't the only one)
PY/Crevo. If you want to open a great debate thread then go ahead. Just you two. I'm getting weary of the pile on's
{AbE}
py writes:
I did try to stop the drift a couple of times earlier but alas it was to no avail.
Try that one on Judgement day
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 4:23 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 105 of 280 (321528)
06-14-2006 4:54 PM


My views
This is going to be a bit rambling
I have never been particularly religious. My parents did make me occassionally attend a fairly liberal methodist church....but it never really took and I haven't been to church since I graduated high school.
I would call myself a weak atheist. I lack belief in any god or gods.... but I could be wrong. In fact I'm still waiting to be shown the evidence
More importantly than my lack of belief in god is that I DON'T CARE if god exists or not. I feel that it's obvious that whether I believe in god or not is irrelevant and has no effect on my life. I have more important things to worry about than whether fairies, gods, spirits and demons exist.
I also agree with Jar (and Jar I'm pretty sure you believe this) that any god worth believing in would not be some petty tyrant. I believe that if any god or gods did exist that was/were worth believing in then he/she/they wouldn't care whether I worshipped them/believed in them/kissed their ass.
I've flirted with deism in the past. Another interesting idea is that maybe everything is god... basically that the universe = god and everything is part of god. I have settled on weak atheism however (I think strong atheism is a bit arrogant... any freethinker should be willing to accept evidence that challenges his/her views.... although that evidence still hasn't been shown). The main thrust of my belief is that I don't care if god/gods exist.
I personally think it's fairly clear that religion is and has always been about power and manipulation. It's actually the world's greatest scam. "Do what the leaders say or else!" Religion seems to be the furthest thing from spirituality.
Humans are unfortunately very susceptible to groupthink...
Well, that was pretty poorly written... but there it is.
I can relate to a lot of what purple said in the first reply

  
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