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Author
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Topic: Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Sorry for the off-topic post.
His analysis of capitalism was false and artificial and created an artificial and deadly ideology which amounted to a utopia even if in spite of his own intentions. I'm up to my ears in tons of stuff but start a topic if you want to pursue this. I'm no expert on Marx but I can dig up plenty of information. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Chiroptera, posted 07-11-2006 4:38 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 92 of 301 (330899)
07-11-2006 5:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by jar
07-11-2006 2:55 PM
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ISLAM IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE TERRORISM
Basic websites on Islam: New faithfreedom site Welcome to nginx! Apostates of Islam: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/ Linked from faith freedom, article at Jewish Virtual Library on Islamic anti-semitism Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to convert and rejected Muhammad, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled; in 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.(3) The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:9798). The Dhimmi Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.
The following are articles linked from the first two sites, the first a piece by Salman Rushdie right after 9/11 about how terrorism IS based on Islam:
Why the routine anti-Semitism of the much-repeated Islamic slander that "the Jews" arranged the hits on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, with the oddly self-deprecating explanation offered by the Taliban leadership, among others, that Muslims could not have the technological know-how or organizational sophistication to pull off such a feat? Why does Imran Khan, the Pakistani ex-sports star turned politician, demand to be shown the evidence of Al Qaeda's guilt while apparently turning a deaf ear to the self-incriminating statements of Al Qaeda's own spokesmen (there will be a rain of aircraft from the skies, Muslims in the West are warned not to live or work in tall buildings)? http://www.faithfreedom.org/...shdie/yes_its_about_islam.htm Ibn Warraq on Muslim hatred of the West as derived from Islam:
There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur’an, the Sunna, and the Hadith - Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam. Islamic fundamentalism has global aspirations... ...western intellectuals have sadly failed in defending western values, such as rationalism, social pluralism, human rights, the rule of law, representative government, individualism (in the sense that every individual counts, and no individual should be sacrificed for some utopian future collective end), freedom of expression, freedom of and from religion, the rights of minorities, and so on..Instead, the so-called experts on Islam in western universities, in the media, in the churches and even in government bureaus have become apologists for Islam. They bear some responsibility for creating an atmosphere little short of intellectual terrorism where any criticism of Islam is denounced as fascism, racism, or “orientalism.” They bear some responsibility for lulling the public into thinking that “The Islamic Threat ” is a myth. It is our duty to fight this intellectual terrorism. It is our duty to defend the values of liberal democracy. Page not found – secularislam.org http://www.apostatesofislam.com/islam_and_terrorism.htm An animated dramatization of the smallness of Israel vis a vis the Arab world, including statistics on such things as military expenditures. Documented at the end. MEI Middle East regimes and terrorism Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 2:55 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 5:15 PM | | Faith has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 93 of 301 (330901)
07-11-2006 5:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
07-11-2006 5:06 PM
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Re: You keep making such allegations.
From the Qur'an Faith, not from propaganda sites. Hell I could find things like that in ten seconds. LOL From the Qur'an Faith, in context.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by Faith, posted 07-11-2006 5:06 PM | | Faith has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5011 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 94 of 301 (330903)
07-11-2006 5:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
07-11-2006 3:45 PM
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Well you've made your position very clear, Faith. Though I disagree, I see no point in arguing this any further. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by Faith, posted 07-11-2006 3:45 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 95 of 301 (330905)
07-11-2006 5:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by jar
07-11-2006 5:15 PM
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Re: ISLAM IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE TERRORISM
As I said, you don't like the facts, but they are facts despite your slander of these people and your usual tactic of poisoning the well by calling their work propaganda. Their knowledge is above reproach and well documented. Here's some more: Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz War verses from the Quran: http://www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm Do a Ctrl-F search for "Jews" and "Book" since the Jews are called the people of the Book. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 5:15 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 5:31 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 96 of 301 (330908)
07-11-2006 5:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
07-11-2006 5:26 PM
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Re: ISLAM IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE TERRORISM
Read the "War Verses" in context Faith. We have certainly published them here often enough. Please show the verses from the Qur'an in context Faith.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Faith, posted 07-11-2006 5:26 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5105 days) Posts: 651 From: Jareth's labyrinth Joined: 03-12-2006
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Message 97 of 301 (330912)
07-11-2006 5:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by jar
07-11-2006 5:15 PM
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Re: You keep making such allegations.
Jar writes: From the Quran, Faith, not from propoganda sites Hey Jar  I know it's been a semester or two since logic class, but wouldn't what you wrote be considered ad Hominem? Besides, quoting verses from a Quran english translation wont really work in a debate like this, considering that most, if not almost all Muslims belive that the Quran is not a Quran if it is a translation; only the Quran in the original Arabic counts (if you want the source let me know). I have a Quran with the arabic text parrallel to the english translation (all in one book) so if you want I'll look up some verses, but not today.
"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 5:15 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 98 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 5:57 PM | | LudoRephaim has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: You keep making such allegations.
There are several such online that we all seem to use regularly, one in particular gives several versions of each verse. Let's see if Faith ever gets even the English translations posted to support her assertions. But the thread is not really about Islam even though Faith loves to try to take it there. I'd like to see it move back towards the topic and the questions I asked back in Message 88.
The real question under all of this is the question of whether Israel has a right to exist as a Nation and whether Palestine likewise has a right to exist as a Nation? These are tough questions, but they really go to the heart of the issue. What is the legal choice? What is the moral choice?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by LudoRephaim, posted 07-11-2006 5:47 PM | | LudoRephaim has not replied |
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3933 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: 07-23-2004
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Message 99 of 301 (330921)
07-11-2006 6:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by jar
07-11-2006 5:15 PM
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Re: You keep making such allegations.
What do you expect Jar? Most positions that are false are very difficult to support when you try to examine the specific details too closely. It is par for the course for fundamentalism of all stripes. Propaganda is your friend, facts and objective analysis are your enemy. It is the only way to sustain an intellectually unmaintainable worldview. There is always going to be Islam hate sites out there especially now since Islam is going through a crisis. Whether or not it will survive in its non-fundamentalist form is yet to be seen but positions as thouse espoused on those sites are certainly not helping at all. Religion is far too easy to pervert which is why fundamentalism can even exist to begin with. It is that same ease to pervert that gives Faith's sources the facade of truth, further fueling the counter fundamentalism and obscuring the real issues and dangers. There is a REAL problem out there stemming from fundamentalist Islam but that needs to be identified and addressed for what it is and not this false and hateful characture created by this purist antagonism. Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.
Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 5:15 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 100 of 301 (330933)
07-11-2006 7:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 98 by jar
07-11-2006 5:57 PM
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Re: You keep making such allegations.
But the thread is not really about Islam even though Faith loves to try to take it there. The thread asks "Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities? and many here attempt to paint Israel as the aggressor in all its dealings with the Palestinians, showing utter ignorance -- or politically correct denial -- of the true cause of the conflict, which is Islam. Certainly right on topic. Direct answer to the allegation of the title. I have no interest in pursuing anything about Islam past the point of saying this. It has been well documented on many other threads and my own links document the motives of Islam from many creditable sources. My references quote the Koran and quote authorities on Islam, and also discuss the political correctness of the suppression of the truth about terrorism. This is the tyrannical political correctness of the Left, that always has to make up an oppressor out of theoretical/ideological fantasy, subjecting history and reality to their own false ideology as Marx did. Support for the Palestinian "cause" is even in Marxist slogans like "liberation" as in Palestinian Liberation Organization, straight out of the 60s New Left. Leftist dupes in this case, blinded to the true cause of the conflict and the true motives of the Palestinians. That's the answer to the claim that Israel is committing "atrocities." Israel is in defense mode and has been from the moment it became a state. If it were an aggressor, it could have wiped the rest of the Middle East off the planet by now -- or taken ALL the land that God originally gave them, considerably more than is allowed to them at present. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : added bolding
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by jar, posted 07-11-2006 5:57 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 101 of 301 (330934)
07-11-2006 7:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-11-2006 7:02 PM
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Re: You keep making such allegations.
That's nice Faith, but does it have anything to do with the subject?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-11-2006 7:02 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 102 of 301 (330935)
07-11-2006 7:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Buzsaw
07-11-2006 8:33 AM
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors and Propaganda?
1. Palestine is for all practical purposes a nation and in fact the most aggressively troublesome neighbor to Israel. they are entirely within the claimed borders of israel. according to israel, palestine is not a country. and vice versa, btw -- but guess which one the world (you know, all those countries that surround those arab nations) sides with? i would consider them hostile neighbors, yes. but israel considers them hostile dissidents and refuges.
North Africa is all pretty much hostile to Israel. yeah? like ethiopia?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Buzsaw, posted 07-11-2006 8:33 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by Faith, posted 07-11-2006 7:09 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors and Propaganda?
North Africa is all pretty much hostile to Israel.
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yeah? like ethiopia? You know what he meant. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 104 of 301 (330941)
07-11-2006 7:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-11-2006 7:02 PM
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Re: You keep making such allegations.
and many here attempt to paint Israel as the aggressor in all its dealings with the Palestinians, showing utter ignorance and vice-versa, faith. it is utter ignorance to paint either side as innocent victim or agressive threat.
or politically correct denial -- of the true cause of the conflict, which is Islam. this is also ignorance. islam is not the cause of the palestinian/israeli conflict. it's a tool the some radical palestinians use, yes. the conflict is not even arab versus hebrew. there is a very large portion of the israeli population that is not arabic, but muslim as well.
and also discuss the political correctness of the suppression of the truth about terrorism. and certainly, not all terrorism is islamic.
This is the tyrannical political correctness of the Left, that always has to make up an oppressor out of theoretical/ideological fantasy, subjecting history and reality to their own false ideology as Marx did. faith, like i said. go live in israel for a while, and tell me it's not more complicated than this. go live in palestine for a year, and tell me you don't understand why they're willing to blow themselves up. palestine is basically a hell-hole. it's almost third world, living next to one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. with regular israeli military action, checkpoints, and now the wall that divides not just israel from palestine, but the palestinian communities themselves, it is quite easy to blame israel for all of palestine's problems. some of the charges might even be justified. and with the suicide bombers coming into israel from palestine, it's quite easy to see palestine as a threat -- justifying things like the wall, the checkpoints, and military action. it's a vicious cycle. ending the conflict would take compromise (something neither side is willing to do), and aid extended from israel to a real nation of palestine. those of us that live in the real world recognize this. blind support of one side or the other does nothing to fuel the conflict.
If it were an aggressor, it could have wiped the rest of the Middle East off the planet by now similarly, if we were the agressor in iraq, we could have nuked it off the planet.
or taken ALL the land that God originally gave them, considerably more than is allowed to them at present. perhaps this has something to do with the dispute? both sides feel the land is promised to them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-11-2006 7:02 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 111 by Faith, posted 07-12-2006 12:25 AM | | arachnophilia has replied | | | Message 112 by Faith, posted 07-12-2006 12:27 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 105 of 301 (330943)
07-11-2006 7:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
07-11-2006 7:09 PM
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors and Propaganda?
North Africa is all pretty much hostile to Israel.
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yeah? like ethiopia? You know what he meant. no, actually i don't. maybe i'm just ignorant of something. but to my knowledge, egypt is not hostile. what other north african countries are?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by Faith, posted 07-11-2006 7:09 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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