Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 166 of 381 (813274)
06-25-2017 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
06-24-2017 10:36 PM


Re: Marxism is no solution to human problems
it seems to me that private wealth is a good thing for society.
Excessive private wealth, such as we have in the US, is good for those who have it and bad for society overall. Not that I'm any kind of Marxist.
As both California and Kansas have demonstrated, the solution is higher taxes on the wealthy, which leads to large economic growth. Lowering taxes produces economic disaster.
But this is all way OT. Got anything relevant to say?
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 10:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 381 (813275)
06-25-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Riggamortis
06-25-2017 8:53 AM


Re: Marxism is no solution to human problems
I don't think wealth is the problem, I think fallen human nature is the problem, and Marxist principles are not the solution. Nothing you've said really addresses Marxist versus Capitalist issues anyway. You can be wealthy and a Marxist, and there are lots of those these days, lots more and lots wealthier than on the Right I suspect. Republicans are not necessarily Capitalists, Democrats are not necessarily Marxists, there are lots of economic problems that have nothing to do with that dichotomy anyway. I believe I said I'm for laws restraining exploitation, I'm aware that wealth can be used for bad purposes but I'm far from convinced that anything you've said addresses the real issues, or that they can be addressed by Marxism versus Capitalism at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Riggamortis, posted 06-25-2017 8:53 AM Riggamortis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by JonF, posted 06-25-2017 9:59 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 169 by Chiroptera, posted 06-25-2017 10:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 168 of 381 (813277)
06-25-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
06-25-2017 9:40 AM


Re: Marxism is no solution to human problems
othing you've said really addresses Marxist versus Capitalist issues anyway.
True. And nothing you have said addresses Marxism vs Capitalism.
I'm aware that wealth can be used for bad purposes but I'm far from convinced that anything you've said addresses the real issues, or that they can be addressed by Marxism versus Capitalism at all.
Marxism vs capitalism is not an issue in the US and hasn't been for quite some time.
The real issue is Republican tax dogma. Trickle-down economics doesn't work. It has never worked. It will never work. But it does accomplish what the Republican politicians want: more wealth for the wealthy, less wealth for the middle class and poor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 9:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 169 of 381 (813280)
06-25-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
06-25-2017 9:40 AM


Just to clarify a few things.
Republicans are not necessarily Capitalists...
Capitalism is about individuals owning businesses ("the means of production") and paying other people wages to work for them.
Which Republicans don't believe in private ownership?
-
...Democrats are not necessarily Marxists.
"Not necessarily"? Marxism is about (among other things) eliminating private ownership of capital and putting the means of production under the control of the workers.
Which Democrats specifically want to eliminate privately owned capital?
-
...or that they can be addressed by Marxism versus Capitalism at all.
I'm sure everyone already knows this, but just to make sure, not all socialists are Marxists. So "Marxism versus Capitalism" isn't the dichotomy since it doesn't include a lot of other stuff.
I realize that this thread is specifically about Marxism, but I thought this needed to be said.

Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. — Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 9:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 170 of 381 (813289)
06-25-2017 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
06-25-2017 6:02 AM


Re: Health Care and Retirement
The Bible forbids giving to the rich.
So then you are saying that the Republicans are anti-Bible Satanists because they are so insistent of taking from the poor and giving to the rich?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 6:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 2:44 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 381 (813290)
06-25-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by dwise1
06-25-2017 2:25 PM


Re: Health Care and Retirement
Oh nonsense. That's a weirdo Marxist idea in itself.
Besides, being a sinner doesn't make you a Satanist. You have to have the objective of killing Christianity and a lot of the human race to be a Satanist.
And to respond generally to the last few posts, I merely meant there are Republicans who think like Marxists and Democrats who think like Capitalists. AND I don't really want to get into Marxist economics on this thread anyway, although if someone can discuss it briefly and sharply that would be fine. I'm more interested in the general Marxism that pits one class against another and that is as much a part of Cultural Marxism as economic Marxism.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2017 2:25 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 06-25-2017 2:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 381 (813291)
06-25-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by caffeine
06-23-2017 1:05 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
By the way I believe the reader pronounced "Friedrich" correctly, how do you think it should be pronounced?)
I think the 'ch' at the end should not sound as in 'chase', but like in 'loch' - though a bit harder.
I was listening again to the You Tube reading and to me it sounds like a soft "sh" rather than a hard "ch." It's not as soft as the German but it's a lot closer than "ch" as in "chase." As I hear it anyway. And the guy IS an American after all. It's amazing he could get that close to the German sound.
Any time you want to do Chapter Two is fine with me. I could use a distraction.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by caffeine, posted 06-23-2017 1:05 PM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2017 5:33 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 173 of 381 (813292)
06-25-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
06-25-2017 2:44 PM


Re: Health Care and Retirement
Faith writes:
You have to have the objective of killing Christianity and a lot of the human race to be a Satanist.
So there's no such thing as a Satanist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 2:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 3:13 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 381 (813293)
06-25-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
06-25-2017 2:56 PM


Re: Health Care and Retirement
Really? I guess you did't read anything I've quoted from the book Marx and Satan? All the pitiless denunciations of God and Christ and the whole human race? And there's more there I haven't yet quoted and may not. How about Aleister Crowley (and he does have followers today too).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 06-25-2017 2:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 06-25-2017 3:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 176 by jar, posted 06-25-2017 3:48 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 175 of 381 (813294)
06-25-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
06-25-2017 3:13 PM


Re: Health Care and Retirement
Faith writes:
All the pitiless denunciations of God and Christ and the whole human race?
What have denunciations of God and Christ got to do with "killing Christianity and a lot of the human race"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 381 (813295)
06-25-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
06-25-2017 3:13 PM


Re: Health Care and Retirement
Your book is not evidence of anything except the fact that a nutjob wrote a book and some people actually believe that foolish material in it.
Fortunately most Satanists have a better chance of making it to heaven than most Christians.
BUT...nothing your nutjob guy wrote has anything to do with Marxism in today's Leftism.
As usual you have totally failed to present one single iota of support for the topic or even the existence of Leftism.
Classic Fail as usual Faith.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 3:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 9:38 PM jar has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 177 of 381 (813296)
06-25-2017 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
06-25-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
I was listening again to the You Tube reading and to me it sounds like a soft "sh" rather than a hard "ch." It's not as soft as the German but it's a lot closer than "ch" as in "chase."
I speak German, so I know something about these things.
There are two different ways to pronounce "ch" depending on the kind of vowel that precedes it.
One way of classifying vowels, the one that counts here, is by where in the mouth it's formed: front, center, or back. Also, German vowels are similar to Spanish, so please forget the English mispronunciation of the letter "i", which in English is a diphthong. The front vowels are i, e, , and . The back vowels are a, o, and u. The central vowel is the schwa, the unaccented vowel "uh", which sounds different in English, French, and German. We're only interested here in the front and back vowels.
The German "ch" sound that most Americans think of is the voiceless dorso-velar fricative. It is formed in the back of the mouth by moving the back of the tongue ("dorso") close to the soft palate, the velum ("velar"), as you force air through ("fricative"). That one appears after back vowels as in "Bach", "ach!", "doch", "Buch". German has no voiced version of it, but I understand that Dutch does have one, as well as modern Greek, I think.
The other German "ch" sound, the one you're talking about, is a voiceless fronto-palatal fricative -- ie, voiceless, formed farther forward in the mouth using the hard palate instead of the velum. It appears after front vowels as in "ich", "Becher", "Friedrich". To the untrained American English ear, it may sound similar to and American English "sh", but it's pronounced farther back in the mouth than the American English "sh". They are still noticeably different from each other.
The "ch" can also come after a consonant, in which case I'm not sure about the rules. For example, "Mnchen", "manchmal", and "durch" all use the palatal "ch", but "Dolch" ("dagger" as in "Dolchsto", Ludendorff's infamous "stab in the back" excuse for having lost WWI) uses the velar.
The voiceless pre-palatal fricative (German "sch") is a bit tighter and a bit more forward than the American English "sh", plus the lips protude more and are more rounded rather that just hanging there loose.
The English "ch" is an entirely different beast altogether. It is not a single consonant sound like the others, but rather it's an [i]affricate/i, a combination of two consonants, in this case a stop ("t") and a fricative ("sh"). To form the English "ch", you start with a "t" and shift into an "sh". In German, that sound only comes from borrowed words and is written "tsch". The same in French where it's written "tch", which is the convention used to transcribe that sound from Russian in English as in the name, Tchaikovsky.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 2:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 9:27 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 178 of 381 (813297)
06-25-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by dwise1
06-25-2017 5:33 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
Caffeine thought the name "Friedrich" was mispronounced with a hard "ch" on this You Tube reading. It sounds softer to me but what do I know. Did you hear it? It's around 22 seconds into the video. Tell us what you think of the reader's pronunciation:
You Tube reading of The Communist Manifesto
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by dwise1, posted 06-25-2017 5:33 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by caffeine, posted 06-26-2017 2:19 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 306 by dwise1, posted 06-30-2017 11:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 179 of 381 (813298)
06-25-2017 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
06-25-2017 3:48 PM


Pastor Wurmbrand
Your book is not evidence of anything except the fact that a nutjob wrote a book and some people actually believe that foolish material in it.
Fortunately most Satanists have a better chance of making it to heaven than most Christians.
BUT...nothing your nutjob guy wrote has anything to do with Marxism in today's Leftism.
This kind of rude abusive attitude makes me often regret ever posting anything here. Pastor Wurmbrand was no "nutjob." He's a well respected Christian pastor who was tortured and imprisoned in Romania under Ceausescu for fourteen years for his faith, three of them in a cell deep underground, and wrote many inspiring books.
Wikipedia on Richard Wurmbrand:
Richard Wurmbrand (March 24, 1909 — February 17, 2001) was a Romanian Christian minister of Jewish descent. In 1948, having become a Christian 10 years before, he dared to publicly say that Communism and Christianity were not compatible. As a result, he experienced imprisonment and torture by the then Communist regime of Romania, for his beliefs. After serving five years (1959-1964) of a second prison sentence, he was ransomed for $10,000. His colleagues in Romania urged him to leave the country and work for religious freedom from a location less personally dangerous. After spending time in Norway and England, he and his wife Sabina, who had also been imprisoned, emigrated to America and dedicated the rest of their lives to publicizing and helping Christians who are persecuted for their beliefs. He wrote more than 18 books, the most widely known being Tortured for Christ. Variations of his works have been translated into more than 60 languages. He founded the international organization Voice of the Martyrs, which continues to aid Christians around the world who are persecuted for their faith.
The idea that Satanists would go to heaven before Christians is also indefensible. Satanists wouldn't want to be in heaven since they hate God and wouldn't want to be in His presence, or anywhere His will is obeyed, or anywhere sin isn't committed.
Believe whatever you want about me, but you are very wrong about the other two points.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 06-25-2017 3:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Riggamortis, posted 06-25-2017 10:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 182 by PaulK, posted 06-25-2017 11:49 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 184 by jar, posted 06-26-2017 7:12 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 06-26-2017 11:56 AM Faith has replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 180 of 381 (813302)
06-25-2017 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
06-25-2017 9:38 PM


Re: Pastor Wurmbrand
Satanism appears to be humanists making fun of organised religion and little more, judging by its tenets.
quote:
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 9:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 11:12 PM Riggamortis has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024