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Author Topic:   Mythology with real places & people
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 16 of 289 (510737)
06-03-2009 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Adminnemooseus
06-03-2009 4:36 AM


Re: Bump - This topics theme is polluting another topic
quote:
Brian wrote: How many places visited during the Exodus have been shown to be real?
Name a real person from any of the first five books of the Old Testament, and provide evidence that they were real.
Moses. Many ancient writers such as Hecataeus of Abdera, the Egyptian historian Manetho, Lysimachus of Alexandria, Eupolemus, Tacitus, and Juvenal all attribute the Pentateuch to Moses.
_________________
On the temple walls at Karnak in Egypt is the record of Pharaoh Shishak's invasion of Judah during the reign of Solomon’s son Rehoboam.
_____________________
The Moabite Stone mentions King Meshas version of his revolt against Israel as found in 2Kings 3:4-27.
______________________
The names of Hezekiah, Manasseh, Omri, Ahab, Pekah, Menahem and Hoshea appear on cuneiform records of Assyrian rulers
__________________
One of King Sargons inscriptions tells of his conquore of Samaria. It reads: "I besieged and conquered Samaria, led away as booty 27,290 inhabitants of it." Compare the account in 2Kings 17:6 "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria and then led Israel into exile"
_______________
The bible speaks of King Sennacherib. When his palace was unearthed
written descriptions were found that read "As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke, I laid siege to 46 of his strong cities ...Himself I made a prisoner in Jerusalem, his royal residence, like a bird in a cage...I reduced his country, but I still increased the tribute and the katr-presents (due) to me (as his) overlord."
_______________
300 cuneiform tablets were uncovered in Babylon at the site known as the Ishtar Gate which relate to King Nebuchadnezzar's reign. Among them were lists of the names of workers and captives living in Babylon who had been taken captive from Jerusalem. The name of Jehoiachin, 'the king of the land of Judah' is mentioned by name along with 5 of his sons.
2King 24:8"Eighteen years old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign, and for three months he reigned in Jerusalem....10During that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came up to Jerusalem, so that the city came under siege..."
___________________
The city where the Patriach Abraham was said to be from Ur has proved to be a real city located on the Euphrates near the Persian Gulf. Excavations there by Sir Leonard Woolley indicate that it was at the height of its power and prestige in the 1900 BCE...the same time that Abraham lived.
______________________
the palace of King Sargon 11 was unearthed in a town ear Khorsabad, in 1843. This king was unknown before they found the temple, he had only been mentioned in the bible at Isaiah chapter 20.
__________________
the names of Peleg, Serug, Nahor, Terah, and Haran are the names of the relatives of Abraham spoken of at Ge 11:17-32.
These names are also found at the ancient royal city of Mari (Tell Hariri)in Syria,which was excavated from 1933 on.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-03-2009 4:36 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 06-04-2009 3:32 AM Peg has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 289 (510846)
06-04-2009 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Peg
06-03-2009 7:03 AM


Try Again
Brian wrote: How many places visited during the Exodus have been shown to be real?
So, of all the places mentioned in the Exodus route you cannot name a single one that has been shown to be real, doesn’t that concern you a little?
Name a real person from any of the first five books of the Old Testament, and provide evidence that they were real.
You need to read my request a little bit more, I asked for a real person from the first five books, the majority of what you posted are not mentioned in the first five books.
I also asked for evidence that they were real and all you have posted are the names of a few people who think that Moses wrote the Pentateuch! None of which you provide the evidence for why they think Moses wrote it.
If I post the names of fifty scholars who don’t think Moses wrote it does that mean he didn’t?
So, do you have any evidence at all that Moses even existed? We don’t even know his proper name.
So, let’s go with Moses, when is it that Moses was supposed to have lived (I have my own opinion on this but I’d appreciate yours)? Give me a rough estimate of the time frame in which we are to look for this ‘historical’ character then we can look for evidence to support this.
Moses. Many ancient writers such as Hecataeus of Abdera, the Egyptian historian Manetho, Lysimachus of Alexandria, Eupolemus, Tacitus, and Juvenal all attribute the Pentateuch to Moses.
As I said, the opinion of people who lived as much as two thousand years after Moses was supposed to have lived is not really strong evidence.
Do you know what they based their conclusion on? Did they actually believe this or are they simply passing on Jewish beliefs? Do you think Old Testament Studies and the study Ancient Near Eastern history has not developed any in the last 2000 years?
On the temple walls at Karnak in Egypt is the record of Pharaoh Shishak's invasion of Judah during the reign of Solomon’s son Rehoboam.
This isn’t even in the first five books, plus this is just an assertion, no one knows if this relief is referring to Israel at all.
The Moabite Stone mentions King Meshas version of his revolt against Israel as found in 2 Kings 3:4-27.
Yes, and way outside my request.
I personally think that King Omri is the first Biblical character that we have good evidence for, not great when we consider the many hundreds mentioned before him.
The names of Hezekiah, Manasseh, Omri, Ahab, Pekah, Menahem and Hoshea appear on cuneiform records of Assyrian rulers
In which context do they appear?
One of King Sargons inscriptions tells of his conquore of Samaria. It reads: "I besieged and conquered Samaria, led away as booty 27,290 inhabitants of it." Compare the account in 2 Kings 17:6 "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria and then led Israel into exile"
Again, way outside the first five books, as are you next few examples. So I wont waste time on them.
The city where the Patriach Abraham was said to be from Ur has proved to be a real city located on the Euphrates near the Persian Gulf. Excavations there by Sir Leonard Woolley indicate that it was at the height of its power and prestige in the 1900 BCE...the same time that Abraham lived.
How does this prove that Abraham was a real person?
the names of Peleg, Serug, Nahor, Terah, and Haran are the names of the relatives of Abraham spoken of at Ge 11:17-32.
These names are also found at the ancient royal city of Mari (Tell Hariri)in Syria,which was excavated from 1933 on.
Once again, how does this prove that any biblical character existed?
I will ask again, name one real person from the first five books of the Bible and provide evidence that they existed.
I find it a bit concerning that the vast majority of your examples came from books much later than the first five, are you not concerned about the lack of evidence for the hundreds of people, some of them kings and pharaohs, mentioned in the Pentateuch?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Peg, posted 06-03-2009 7:03 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 06-04-2009 7:35 AM Brian has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 18 of 289 (510856)
06-04-2009 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
06-04-2009 3:32 AM


Re: Try Again
No, I do not need to try again
It matters not to me that people refuse to accept the evidence for the people and places mentioned in the bible
Archeology has proven the bibles historical accuracy time and time again.
If people still want to claim that it is nothing more then myths and legends, then it shows more then just ignorance...it shows a deep bias which no amount of evidence will ever satisfy.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 06-04-2009 3:32 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 06-04-2009 8:22 AM Peg has replied
 Message 21 by Huntard, posted 06-04-2009 2:01 PM Peg has replied
 Message 27 by Modulous, posted 06-05-2009 3:42 AM Peg has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 289 (510866)
06-04-2009 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Peg
06-04-2009 7:35 AM


Re: Try Again
Peg writes:
It matters not to me that people refuse to accept the evidence for the people and places mentioned in the bible
Archeology has proven the bibles historical accuracy time and time again.
If people still want to claim that it is nothing more then myths and legends, then it shows more then just ignorance...it shows a deep bias which no amount of evidence will ever satisfy.
To be fair, though...we Christians have our own bias in favor of the Bible, God, Jesus, and the three wise guys.
Perhaps a good question to ask ourselves is this: If there were no evidence, would it change our basic beliefs?
Do we need evidence to strengthen our faith?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 06-04-2009 7:35 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by bluescat48, posted 06-04-2009 11:02 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 1:59 AM Phat has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 20 of 289 (510882)
06-04-2009 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
06-04-2009 8:22 AM


Re: Try Again
Phat writes:
Perhaps a good question to ask ourselves is this: If there were no evidence, would it change our basic beliefs?
Do we need evidence to strengthen our faith?
This is what I was attempting to bring out in this topic, basically whether one needs evidence or not. Each individual is going to believe whatever he wants. Some, such as I, need physical evidence others, such as Peg, apparently don't. The fact that actual places appear in writings give no creedence to whether the events pictured are real or mythological. the same goes for people named in the story.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 06-04-2009 8:22 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 1:43 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 21 of 289 (510898)
06-04-2009 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Peg
06-04-2009 7:35 AM


Re: Try Again
Peg writes:
It matters not to me that people refuse to accept the evidence for the people and places mentioned in the bible
The problem is you haven't provided any evidence. You basically say this:
"I believe Moses existed. And the reason I believe that is because other people believe it too!"
That's not evidence, Peg.
Archeology has proven the bibles historical accuracy time and time again.
It has proven that places mentioned in the bible existed. This doesn't mean ANY OTHER claim in the bible is true.
If people still want to claim that it is nothing more then myths and legends, then it shows more then just ignorance...it shows a deep bias which no amount of evidence will ever satisfy.
Wanting evidence to believe extraordinary stuff is not a bias, Peg.
If I told you I was picked up by aliens in their UFO this morning, and first went to alpha centauri to take a tour, and they then dropped me off on time for work, would you believe me?
Would you believe me if I gave you several people that DO believe me?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 06-04-2009 7:35 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 2:03 AM Huntard has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 22 of 289 (510953)
06-05-2009 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by bluescat48
06-04-2009 11:02 AM


Re: Try Again
bluescat48 writes:
This is what I was attempting to bring out in this topic, basically whether one needs evidence or not. Each individual is going to believe whatever he wants. Some, such as I, need physical evidence others, such as Peg, apparently don't.
thats why i asked Stile for a definition of faith
to me, faith is not blind belief as many claim. Faith is an expectation of hope. This means that to have a hope, there must be a basis for that hope. For a christian, our hope rests on God. What we learn from the bible becomes the foundation and with accurate knowledge the end result is faith. So faith is based on knowledge...its not blind nor does it come before knowledge.
Its not unreasonable for a christian to require some evidence of the bibles inspiration and so many do undertake a deeper study and do look at secular records for further proof...only after this is faith produced.
My list of archeological evidence (written off by Brian) is a form of evidence that christians use to determine the bibles accuracy and historicity. And for this reason they can trust the bible and in turn use it to develop a faith in God...they begin to understand the type of God he is and what his purpose and plans are and they put their trust and hope in him.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by bluescat48, posted 06-04-2009 11:02 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 06-05-2009 3:00 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 23 of 289 (510954)
06-05-2009 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
06-04-2009 8:22 AM


Re: Try Again
Phat writes:
Perhaps a good question to ask ourselves is this: If there were no evidence, would it change our basic beliefs?
Do we need evidence to strengthen our faith?
its a good question because for some things, there is no evidence...eg Noahs Ark.
Its never been found, so we cant see it and say 'there it is so it is definitely true'. Yet I believe it 100%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 06-04-2009 8:22 AM Phat has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 24 of 289 (510955)
06-05-2009 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Huntard
06-04-2009 2:01 PM


Re: Try Again
Huntard writes:
Wanting evidence to believe extraordinary stuff is not a bias, Peg.
it is bias if the evidence is thrown in the bin
There is nothing wrong with wanting to see evidence, i wanted to see it myself! The problem is that even when there is evidence, it is cast aside and rejected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Huntard, posted 06-04-2009 2:01 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Huntard, posted 06-05-2009 3:24 AM Peg has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 25 of 289 (510959)
06-05-2009 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
06-05-2009 1:43 AM


Re: Try Again
My list of archeological evidence (written off by Brian) is a form of evidence that christians use to determine the bibles accuracy and historicity.
But you haven't provided any evidence!
Tell you what, since you have failed to provide evidence of any real people or events in the first five books, what is your evidence for Shishak's relief featuring Israelites?
Posting someone's opinion doesn't make something true, you at least have to tell us why these people arrive at their conclusions otherwise how can we rebutt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 1:43 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 6:00 AM Brian has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 26 of 289 (510961)
06-05-2009 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peg
06-05-2009 2:03 AM


Re: Try Again
Peg writes:
it is bias if the evidence is thrown in the bin
But Peg, there is no evidence to throw away.
Saying "I Believe it because somebody else believes it" is NOT evidence.
The problem is that even when there is evidence, it is cast aside and rejected.
But there is no evidence presented.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 2:03 AM Peg has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 27 of 289 (510963)
06-05-2009 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Peg
06-04-2009 7:35 AM


To the topic
Archeology has proven the bibles historical accuracy time and time again.
If people still want to claim that it is nothing more then myths and legends, then it shows more then just ignorance...it shows a deep bias which no amount of evidence will ever satisfy.
To the point of this topic: A myth can be set in a real ancient place and can feature real people. Do you agree?
It strikes me that those that accept the Bible as true tend to think that those reject the Bible must do so because they think every thing in it is lies - and they think that by showing that some places or people mentioned really did exist, that demonstrates the reliability of the books and this therefore demonstrates that Yahweh is the God of History.
This doesn't work for the Iliad, so why should it work for another work?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 06-04-2009 7:35 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 28 of 289 (510966)
06-05-2009 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
06-05-2009 3:00 AM


Re: Try Again
Brian writes:
Tell you what, since you have failed to provide evidence of any real people or events in the first five books, what is your evidence for Shishak's relief featuring Israelites?
the link below is a picture of the wall.
its a large wall with hieroglyphics and pictures that depictes the Egyptian god Amon bringing to Pharaoh Shishak 156 manacled Palestinian prisoners, who are attached by cords to his left hand. Each prisoner represents a city or village, the name of which is shown in hieroglyphics. Among those that can still be read and identified are Rabbith (Josh. 19:20) Taanach, Beth-shean, and Megiddo (Josh 17:11) Shunem (Josh. 19:18) Rehob (Josh 19:28) Hapharaim (Josh 19:19) Gibeon (Josh 18:25) Beth-horon (Josh 21:22) Aijalon (Josh 21:24); Socoh (Josh 15:35) and Arad (Josh 12:14).
Source
Edited by AdminModulous, : shortened long link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 06-05-2009 3:00 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by bluescat48, posted 06-05-2009 11:05 AM Peg has replied
 Message 63 by Brian, posted 06-09-2009 4:20 PM Peg has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 29 of 289 (510993)
06-05-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Peg
06-05-2009 6:00 AM


Re: Try Again
I don't think that anyone is denying those towns existed, the point is how does the fact that they are listed prove that God exits, or that that Bible is true. That is the evidence we are asking for. Give us this evidence.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 6:00 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 2:03 AM bluescat48 has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 30 of 289 (511090)
06-06-2009 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by bluescat48
06-05-2009 11:05 AM


Re: Try Again
bluescat48 writes:
I don't think that anyone is denying those towns existed, the point is how does the fact that they are listed prove that God exits, or that that Bible is true.
what it proves is that the bible is based on fact and not fiction. This gives the books of the bible a certain degree of authority because their truthfulness is seen in archeology.
Now, i dont believe that life can arise by chance, or the universe came into existence by a chance explosion, so for me, there must be a creator, and the bible claims to represent such a creator. It was worth investigating and I havnt been disappointed. And just because there are some things that the bible does not explain, it does not make everything else it say null and void.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by bluescat48, posted 06-05-2009 11:05 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 06-06-2009 4:42 AM Peg has replied
 Message 35 by bluescat48, posted 06-06-2009 8:17 AM Peg has not replied

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