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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12776
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1 of 314 (649579)
01-24-2012 1:15 PM


This is where we will argue:

* That public healthcare means lower taxes.
* That public healthcare means less bureaucracy.
* That public healthcare means better outcomes.
* That public healthcare means cheaper private healthcare if you want it.
* That public healthcare means that you will be better able to afford private healthcare if you want it.
* That public healthcare is just.
* That public healthcare is desirable.
* That the present system of healthcare in the USA is neither capitalism nor socialism, but an evil hybrid producing the worst of both worlds.
* That it is undeniably best that the USA should have public healthcare.

Let's put this all in one thread instead of debating it piecemeal when the topic is something else.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 01-24-2012 1:29 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 01-24-2012 3:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 7347
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2 of 314 (649581)
01-24-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
01-24-2012 1:15 PM


All I know
I work at a grocery store as a union worker, and have been there 8 years..(with the union 22 years) and we have good healthcare. As employees, we pay $5.00 a week...$20.00 a month while the employer picks up roughly $700.00 apiece.

Now...logically I know that this deal wont last...many say that healthcare will be a major issue next contract.

I have sleep apnea and also type II diabetes, and were I paying out of pocket no insurance, my health care and medication costs would approach $500.00 a month.

Would public health care work for me?

Edited by Phat, : spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 1:15 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 01-24-2012 1:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 1:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 7 by Perdition, posted 01-24-2012 2:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 27 by onifre, posted 01-25-2012 8:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
saab93f
Member
Posts: 188
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 3 of 314 (649582)
01-24-2012 1:37 PM


I come from a country with universal healthcare. We also have very low-cost (non-cost for those who qualify) kindergarten and non-cost school system all the way to universities and doctorate studies.

We pay more in taxes but the bottom-line is that healthcare is and can be seen as such a public service like the police or fire rescue that it is imperative to have. Id like to think that this country has prospered because basically everyone has equal opportunities and then motivation and interest are the deciding factors instead of your wealth.

The fact that you are not put into financial constraint if you happen to get sick or if a member of your family does, allows people to concentrate on things that really matter.

Could our system work better, sure. Is it good for the cost, yes. Employers have to offer workers healthcare to cover anything and everything that happens during work - that is a sensible extra to our system. We have private healthcare for those who are willing to pay - queues are shorter but quality is pretty much the same.

All in all - universal public healthcare allows for public rest. No-one is left behind. A small nation needs all its worker-bees to be fit and well and I cannot think of a better way.


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 2:03 PM saab93f has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 3943
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 4 of 314 (649583)
01-24-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
01-24-2012 1:29 PM


Re: All I know
Would public health care work for me?

The point of publicly-funded healthcare is that funding is taxed according to ability to pay in a fair and sustainable manner (ie, a progressive tax rate such that the very poor may pay nothing and the very wealthy will pay a lot), but services are rendered according to medical necessity.

Right now, medical services are provided based on ability to pay...and the sick usually lose that ability very quickly.

Under any normal universal healthcare option (Britain, Canada, Germany, etc) you would be covered. In many nations this includes no copays for any office visits or tests, though sometimes there is a copay for medication (usually substantially less than what we pay in the US). There would never be a contract negotiation on healthcare. Even if you lost your job, you would be covered. If you changed your job, you wouldn't need to worry about a 30-day or 6-month or even 1-year wait before you qualify for coverage from the new employer. If you took a job as an independent contractor, you wouldn't need to worry about purchasing your own coverage. You'd never need to worry about finding affordable coverage for your pre-existing condition, ever.

There really are no effective arguments against public healthcare - it's actually rather silly that we don't have it.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 01-24-2012 1:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12776
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 5 of 314 (649584)
01-24-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
01-24-2012 1:29 PM


Re: All I know
Would public health care work for me?

Clearly, what with you being a member of the public.

Also, you raise a good point about your contract. The thing about healthcare that I didn't have back in the UK is fear. What if your employer decides to drop healthcare provision? And if s/he does, then you have type II diabetes, a pre-existing condition that would make it difficult for you to get healthcare even if you could afford to pay your own premiums ...

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 01-24-2012 1:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12776
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 314 (649591)
01-24-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by saab93f
01-24-2012 1:37 PM


We pay more in taxes ...

Well, name your country. The chances are that you pay less in taxes to provide public healthcare.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by saab93f, posted 01-24-2012 1:37 PM saab93f has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by saab93f, posted 01-24-2012 3:09 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 1592
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 7 of 314 (649595)
01-24-2012 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
01-24-2012 1:29 PM


Re: All I know
Another benefit of public, universal health care would be there would no longer be "out-of-network" doctors, clinics or hospitals. You'd be able to go to the doctor you wanted, rather than having to choose the best or closest from a list provided by your healthcare network.

Another benefit of that is that if you're on a trip to another part of the country and have an accident, you won't have to add worrying about how much your insurance will cover to your pain and worry about the accident. You could go to any hospital, show your SS card, or whatever, and get the emergency care you need. Right now, you may try to figure out which hospital in the area is part of your network, wasting time and energy that you shouldn't have to in an emergency. It may even turn out that there isn't anything in your network in the area, and you'll just have to cover almost all of the cost yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 01-24-2012 1:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 2:30 PM Perdition has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12776
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 314 (649597)
01-24-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Perdition
01-24-2012 2:22 PM


Re: All I know
Another benefit of public, universal health care would be there would no longer be "out-of-network" doctors, clinics or hospitals. You'd be able to go to the doctor you wanted, rather than having to choose the best or closest from a list provided by your healthcare network.

I'm not sure that that is completely true. While in the UK, I would have had a lot of difficulty registering with a GP in a whole other city.

This would be a fairly trivial restriction, because in fact I wanted to be registered with a practice that was ten minutes' walk away from me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Perdition, posted 01-24-2012 2:22 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Perdition, posted 01-24-2012 2:38 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 1592
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 9 of 314 (649599)
01-24-2012 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Adequate
01-24-2012 2:30 PM


Re: All I know
I'm not sure that that is completely true. While in the UK, I would have had a lot of difficulty registering with a GP in a whole other city.

Well, depends on how close the city is. Here, I grew up in a small town that didn't have any doctors. I had to drive 30 minutes to get to the larger city that had doctros' offices and hospitals. But even within the same city, some doctors are part of one insurance network, others are part of a second, still others are part of a third, and on and on. There are quite a few that are "in-network" for multiple networks, but it's quite a mess to try and make sure your doctor is aprt of the same network you are.

For instance, my wife and I are hoping to have a baby. My wife knows what hospital she wants to deliver at, and it's part of the right network. But even so, we need to make sure the doctor she wants is part of the network as well, despite the fact that the doctor works in that hospital.

With public healthcare, we could just go to the hospital we want, see the doctor we want, and not have to worry about what plan s/he is in and whether ours is the same.

As for a GP, yeah, you'd probably need to register and make sure the doctor has the capacity to add another patient, etc. But even so, you'd have one less worry, that of making sure the GP is part of your network.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 2:30 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 5230
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 10 of 314 (649600)
01-24-2012 2:55 PM


This is the one fact that we really need to focus on, the cost per capita for health care in the US compared to countries with socialized health care:


(and this is from 2008, it has grown worse since then)
Source:
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/OECD042111.cfm

This is what the for profit health care system in the US has done for us. It has doubled the cost. The US already spends as much per capita on socialized medicine (e.g. Medicare) as other countries, and this doesn't even start to cover everyone.

On top of that, US citizens are still worse off when it comes to health. The US trails other countries in important statistics such as life expectancy and infant mortality. We are paying more and getting worse health care. WTF?

I say that the experiment has already been run. Socialized medicine wins by a long shot. For profit health care has failed.


  
Taq
Member
Posts: 5230
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 11 of 314 (649601)
01-24-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Perdition
01-24-2012 2:38 PM


Re: All I know
With public healthcare, we could just go to the hospital we want, see the doctor we want, and not have to worry about what plan s/he is in and whether ours is the same.

You don't have to decide between paying the power bill and buying medication, either. Even more, you don't have to choose between bankrupting your family or dying an early death.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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 Message 9 by Perdition, posted 01-24-2012 2:38 PM Perdition has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3179
Joined: 08-12-2009
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 12 of 314 (649602)
01-24-2012 3:00 PM


I just got a bill yesterday from the ambulance company for two trips that totalled ~$2000. I love having no insurance.

Mythology is what we call someone elses religion. Joseph Campbell

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 6333
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 13 of 314 (649603)
01-24-2012 3:00 PM


The NHS
I feel safe in knowing the healthcare will be there when needed. When I was badly ill with an acute condition in 2006, I didn't have to make any phone calls or fill out any forms, negotiate with an insurance rep or any of that.

I'm sure it differs from nation to nation, but the NHS does have its downsides. It's main one seems to be underfunding. This underfunding is probably responsible for long waiting times for anything that isn't trivial or an immediate emergency.

The whole thing is incredibly complex and notoriously difficult to run without some problem rearing its head. There is also a built in unfairness in that different localities are handled by different trusts with different somewhat independent boards. This leads to what has be called 'a Post Code Lottery' - meaning depending on where you live determines how much money is being spent on one problem or another. Furthermore, these trusts also make decisions about whether to pay for certain new (and inevitably expensive) drugs. So whether you live or die may come down to something as arbitrary as where you live.

I was once privately insured, I had my tonsils out in a private facility and received physio for a series of sports injuries. The general service was much better, the experience much more comfortable. I had my own room, my own television with cable tv. It was fantastic. If I'm ever in a position to pay for private healthcare insurance, I'll do it again.

But I'm glad I don't have the stresses of having to choose to be insured or take huge risks with my finances/health. I don't have to worry about the consequences of being diagnosed with a chronic condition to my healthcare payments.


    
Taq
Member
Posts: 5230
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 14 of 314 (649604)
01-24-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
01-24-2012 1:15 PM


This is where we will argue:
* That public healthcare means lower taxes.
* That public healthcare means less bureaucracy.
* That public healthcare means better outcomes.
* That public healthcare means cheaper private healthcare if you want it.
* That public healthcare means that you will be better able to afford private healthcare if you want it.
* That public healthcare is just.
* That public healthcare is desirable.
* That the present system of healthcare in the USA is neither capitalism nor socialism, but an evil hybrid producing the worst of both worlds.
* That it is undeniably best that the USA should have public healthcare.

Replace healthcare with education and ask again. What if we privatized elementary education so that only a certain percentage of families could afford it?

Let's do the same with roads. Let's privatize all of them and allow different companies to work together to set prices. How long before the lower 10% of wage earners can no longer afford to use roads, or send their kids to school?

Of course public healthcare will increase taxes. It will also eliminate the need for private health insurance premiums. A big bonus is that people will start seeing primary care doctors before their ailments become so bad that they go to the emergency room. A visit to a primary doc for a simple cure is WAY CHEAPER than a trip to the ER for an ailment that has gone too far. As of now, those unpaid ER bills are paid by other customers. We are already paying for the emergency care of the uninsured. It would be better for EVERYONE if they had publicly funded health insurance that would allow them to see a primary family doc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 1:15 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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saab93f
Member
Posts: 188
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 15 of 314 (649605)
01-24-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
01-24-2012 2:03 PM


"Well, name your country. The chances are that you pay less in taxes to provide public healthcare. "

I live in Finland. From my ~5000 Eur monthly wage I pay 29 percent tax and them some 6 percent for unemployment coverage etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 2:03 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Rahvin, posted 01-24-2012 3:18 PM saab93f has not yet responded
 Message 17 by hooah212002, posted 01-24-2012 3:22 PM saab93f has responded
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2012 4:53 PM saab93f has not yet responded

  
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