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Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Hill Billy.
This brings back memories: I was but a forum infant when you were last here (remember the "Evolutionary Superiority" thread: what a blast! Let's not do it again ). It's good to see (read?) you back.
Hill Billy writes: I think lots of "Christians" view sin the same way.I don't. I see sin as a verb. To sin is to actively, knowingly, make a choice you should not. That simple, and that abstract. Perhaps thats why the law shall be written on their hearts. I guess I have been a bit unfair: I know that Protestants, at least, have a less rigid view of laws, and thus, of sin, than I've presented. But, it still seems that individual Christians still want everything to be about performances and stringent laws. For instance, it always bothers me that people are still so attached to the Ten Commandments (which should have been done away with by Jesus' sacrifice, if the pauline doctrine of Atonement is correct): as if you get to heaven by not using God's name in vain and not stealing things. I take it you see sin more as I do: as an impediment to progress, rather than systematic infractions to rigid guidelines? -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Envisioning is not the problem. Reality is. We can envision anything we want, but that doesn't help us deal with day to day living and survival. quote:I would say that religion is like a rebellious teenager. They have problems cutting the apron string. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
And, I just got done telling you that there is very little "punishment" in the Mormon system. Everyone attains "glory" at the end of this life. Greater purity* results in greater glory, just like better work results in higher pay and promotions.
Slide that scale, slide it! God does not punish you, he just... withholds blessings. He does not send you to hell, you just are not privileged to be in his presence. The Mormon thing would be just the same if bad actions caused you to miss out on blessings rather than causing impurity that causes you to miss out on blessings. The whole "punishment or withheld blessings" thing is a completely different issue.
Bluejay writes:
Ohh, so God does not determine what causes impurity, he just chooses to judge people based on it. Oh wait, its EXACTLY THE SAME THING! In the end, we’ll be Judged according to our progress and dedication to the goal, not according to the final tally of good and bad deeds we did in our lifetime. Look, suppose I were an arbitrary deity and I have three different ways of doing my godly thing: 1) I make a rule that the taller you are, the more I hate you! Nobody can get completely rid of height, so everyone is screwed more or less. There are things you can do to stop being tall but they run contrary to people's biology. Anyways, I say being tall is bad and punish people based on their tallness. 2) In this second method I still hold the same position as the first, I just slide the scale over so that I reward people less as they get taller. Assumptions about how it is to go completely reward-less vary, but generally people assume it is about the same as in method 1. It gets me out of looking like a bad guy though, right? 3) The third method I will call the "Mormon Method". Here I go with the same sliding scale as in method 2, but I don't say people being tall is a bad thing. Instead I say having a bunch of "tall-tokens" is a bad thing, and decide that being taller gives you more tall-tokens. But hey, this way I am not judging people on their height, I don't make the rules there. It is ridiculous to try to avoid responsibility that way! It is like saying that the police don't charge you for speeding.. they charge you for having a ticket, which you get for speeding.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3265 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
b) things that are wrong because they prevent you from achieving your goals. Who decides our goals? If my goal is to live the best life I can using the evidence at hand as a measure of what that means, without any belief in a god whatsoever. Does god judge me based on those goals or on what he considers our goals should be? What if someone's goal is to kill a string of people and go out in a hail of police gunfire? Does the fact that he sadly meets and exceeds his goals mean he gets a prime position in God's graces?
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Damn it, Phage!
I’m not talking about judgment or about consequences: I’m only talking about the basic concept of arbitrarily-defined versus inherently-existent sin. This is getting needlessly complex because you are apparently completely incapable of working with a simple, abstract concept. You cannot view the concept without including your preconceptions about mainstream Christianity, despite your total lack of knowledge about Mormonism. Please try to absorb at least a little of what I’m writing. Here is a simplified version of Mormon theology and discipline, on the off-chance that you might actually attempt to understand that it’s not the same as your preconceptions about mainstream Christianity (I’m not holding my breath, though):
God did not create sin. God created the universe within a framework that already included sin as one of its foundational concepts. God sets rules and laws as guidelines to help us find the path to Godhood. Whether or not we even want Godhood, we still attain glory (i.e. heaven) in the next life. Everyone does. We view Godhood as the highest attainable glory. Judgment is metaphorical: the glory that we receive is not actually up to God, but is wholly contingent on our progress and dedication to the goal. Because we will all inevitably fall short of the ultimate goal, the Atonement grants Jesus the authority to make up for the shortcomings of those who have dedicated all they can to the goal of Godhood. If you still want to hold to your preconceptions all of this is arbitrary, and that God is thus evil for enforcing arbitrary rules, then go right ahead. But the bottom line is that, in the Mormon version, God is as bound by the laws as we are. So, from the Mormon perspective, arguing that sin is tyrannical is exactly equivalent to arguing that gravity is tyrannical. This is not the same as having an actual entity who is consciously choosing, for some arbitrary reason, to define sin in a certain way. Please tell me you see the difference. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Perdition.
Perdition writes: Bluejay writes: b) things that are wrong because they prevent you from achieving your goals. Who decides our goals? If my goal is to live the best life I can using the evidence at hand as a measure of what that means, without any belief in a god whatsoever. Does god judge me based on those goals or on what he considers our goals should be? What if someone's goal is to kill a string of people and go out in a hail of police gunfire? Does the fact that he sadly meets and exceeds his goals mean he gets a prime position in God's graces?
Yeah, that was bad wording on my part. The only goal that our religion is involved in is the goal of achieving Godhood. Sin is then restricted to those things that prevent us from achieving the goal of Godhood. Our religion doesn't teach us much about what other goals are available in the next life, but I personally don't see any reason why you can't make and keep some other goal. We regard Godhood as the highest glory, but the importance or desirability of it is ultimately a subjective matter. You still get to go to heaven if Godhood is not your goal. Edited by Bluejay, : Addition. Edited by Bluejay, : No reason given. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Bluejay writes:
So suffering in Hell for 1000 years because one refuses to accept Jesus as their Savior is purely metaphorical? (Doctrine and Covenants 76:84, 105-106) It is an interesting viewpoint, I will give you that...
Judgment is metaphorical: the glory that we receive is not actually up to God, but is wholly contingent on our progress and dedication to the goal.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Phage.
Phage writes: So suffering in Hell for 1000 years because one refuses to accept Jesus as their Savior is purely metaphorical? (Doctrine and Covenants 76:84, 105-106) Yeah, that's where it gets really complicated. I think it's also where my personal views diverge from the views of mainstream Mormons, so I won't go there for now. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Coyote.
Note to all: sorry it's taking me so long to respond to everyone. I'm a slow poster, so please be patient.
Coyote writes: And perhaps a contrary opinion... Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973 Heinlein... who would have expected that from you? I tend to agree on this point. The list of things traditionally viewed as sins seems to be arbitrary, which is probably why atheists tend to see religion as inconsistent and tyrannical. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Woodsy.
Woodsy writes: In summary, "sin" is a con used by clerics to gain power.
Unfortunately, I agree with you. Even if you assume that it isn't the clerics, but God, who decided what sin is, you're still left with why God made sin what He did. Obviously, the logic doesn't change just because God's involved (despite what just about all Christians---including Mormons---will say), so it's only reasonable to conclude that God inventing sin is just like a cleric inventing sin. To me, the only way to rationalize the concept of sin is to prove that it is actually a part of the function of the universe. But this raises a number of questions:
I'd like to put a little more thought into it before I try to post my own responses, but I thought I'd open it up for anyone else to comment on. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Bailey.
Bailey writes: In this way, the passages have, most often, been glossed over as though that is all there is to learn: offering the Father vegetables is a sin. It is at this point that one may consider in what way an offering towards the Father of vegetables, as opposed to livestock offerings, may be sinful ... if at all. I don't think you quite said what about Cain's sacrifice you think was the sin. If you did, I missed it. I think most Mormons think there was something wrong with Cain's attitude towards the sacrifice, but I still don't get it. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I just thought of a good joke that oddly fits this topic!
Q: Why will there be more Women in Heaven than Men? A: Because Women are more likely to stop and ask for directions! Seriously, though...this whole idea that we don't need a God because we would rather do it ourselves is part of what makes sin sin.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Hi Bleujay
I know next to nothing about Mormonism but I am intrigued by the idea of an absolute morality that is an inherent part of the natural universe.
Bluejay writes: To me, the only way to rationalize the concept of sin is to prove that it is actually a part of the function of the universe Would this not require that whoever or whatever created the universe also created morality and the concept of sin as part of that universe? In which case are we not back to the arbitrary nature of sin as designed by some sort of universe creating god entity? I have no idea what mormonsim teaches about the origin of the universe (and thus sin) but if there is a creator involved I think we are necessarily back to arbitrary god-given laws again.
Bluejay writes: What effects is sin supposed to have? And how can you show that these effects are happening? Well are the effects empirically detectable in themselves? Or is it only the "soul" or mind of the sinner that is affected by sin. If it is the latter then it will be impossible to truly objectively verify the effects of sin. Instead the best that can be achieved is speculation with regard to what is going inside the mind of the sinner as indicated by their behaviour. This would seem a rather unreliable measure of anything at all.
Doesn't this make God superfluous? If so, what does it say about God? If god is not the arbiter of sin then a key role normally associated with god has indeed been removed. However surely arguments for compassion, spiritual meaning, guidance and other such roles can still remain for god? As you know I am not a believer but I am not convinced that those who do believe in god would, or even should, feel the need to consider god wholly superfluous purely on the basis of it being shown that sin was a function of the natural universe. If we assume for the sake of argument that sin is a product of the natural universe how do we determine what is sinful and what is not? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Woodsy Member (Idle past 3401 days) Posts: 301 From: Burlington, Canada Joined: |
Seriously, though...this whole idea that we don't need a God because we would rather do it ourselves is part of what makes sin sin. I do not understand this statement. Please elaborate. I would like your opinion on how the notion of sin differs from the notion of crime. Personally, I like the Heinlein passage quoted upthread. Many of the sins listed in religions seem to me to be designed to produce fear and guilt, and therefore obedience. The rest seem obvious for people living in societies.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3265 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
Would this not require that whoever or whatever created the universe also created morality and the concept of sin as part of that universe? In which case are we not back to the arbitrary nature of sin as designed by some sort of universe creating god entity? I have no idea what mormonsim teaches about the origin of the universe (and thus sin) but if there is a creator involved I think we are necessarily back to arbitrary god-given laws again. A potential loop-hole is if you assume God is not omnipotent. If he had to make compromises in order to make a stable, life-supporting universe, perhaps the existence of sin is a necessary trade-off. I know this is an unsatisfactory answer for people on both sides of the debate, but it is still a possibility. Another option, and forgive me if I'm stepping all over Mormon beliefs here, is that if sin is an obstacle to "Godhood", perhaps it is there merely as a test. In school, getting wrong answers lowers your grade, not out of animosity or arbitrariness, but because you didn't have the right answer. The directions may be arbitrary, but perhaps there aren't any that aren't arbitrary, so God has to pick something. He's giving us something to strive for, and not making it too easy. Of course, if god doesn't exist, then sin doesn't either. So I'm still off the hook.
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