What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?

The RCC does state that miracles happen in the present. Before any canonization...and they happen all the time...there must be 2 or 3 'confirmed' miracles.So what would it take for you to believe in a miracle? First hand accounts, second hand accounts, doctors' testimonies? I can get you plenty of the those...or do you need a miracle to actually happen to you?

Phat says: So Phat, how does someone KNOW they are saved?How does someone know it is God? Of course. It is totally irrelevant whether or not we pray and commune with God Herself.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hello,I would require independent verification(i.e. an inquiry conducted by someone who has no stake in the claim to miracles). Also, to prove the result was truly a supernatural act of divine providence instead of an oddity, one would need to call the shot ahead of time.For example, the church is fond of using cancer remission as a miracle. If a group of cancer patients prayed to God for a cure and say 50% of them went into remission, then I would agree this is miraculous.The facts is, however, that the church looks for the oddball occurrence as an afterthought. Basically, they are approached by someone who went into remission or were cured of some ailment after being told they are on their last legs. Typically, this is a person of faith who is certain that beating the overwhelming odds implied a miraculous event.I certainly cannot disprove the event was not miraculous, but then again isolated samples do not make a good inference. One can always find occurrences that do not fit normal patterns and assign them to the miraculous.As usual, I am not stating I have proof that such things do not occur. I simply have no reason to believe they do in fact happen. I have never seen a miracle, or heard of someone who has. The information we receive about such events is always relayed through third parties with a vested interest in the story. It always happens to someone elses friend of a friend, or someone who heard of someone who knows someone who had a miracle, ect ect..

Most of the people in the world sincerely believe things that aren't true, so second hand testimony of one-time events by non-experts is not of much use. The number of religions whose beliefs are true is either one or zero, and belief in miracles is primarily religious. Medical miracles are in the eye of the beholder, and besides they're a dime a dozen as a visit to any faith healer's tent will testify.I would need repeatable, observable, testable violations of known physical laws.--Percy

However, miracles are by definition an act of volition of some supernatural being and so by definition are not repeatable unless that supernatural being decides in this particular case to repeat. I looks then as though true repeatability is unlikely since each miracle requires the consent and cooperation of that being.My websites are a good example. I design websites, but I also am very selective who I will design a website for. Lots of folk ask me to design a site for them, but most either don't interest me, or I don't feel comfortable with the person, and so I turn them down. In other cases I feel a spark of excitement and so I accept the task.When something is, as miracles are, the result of an act of volition of some individual, they are not necessarily repeatable, so expecting such behavior makes little sense.Your second part, that it must violate known physical laws also is pretty irrelevant.The websites I create don't violate know physical laws, nor are they distinguishable from other websites. The final product is pretty much the same. If you look at the result, the only indication that this was an act of volition is that it exists.The result of a miracle may well be indistinguishable from any other event. Perhaps the only real characteristic might be that it is unexpected.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Good post there by jar.I agree that repeatable miracles, or in Grizz's case, a certain statistical percentage of 'miracles' would rather negate the whole idea of a miracle.I also do not believe you can have confirmed evidence from someone who is not a believer, or has no vested interest, because part of what a miracle is, is the answer to a prayer. Folks link the cause and effect. Those who don't believe in God still experience the unexpected or unexplainable, and refer to this as a 'miracle', because in this world, sudden, seemingly uncaused, inexplicable events DO happen.Therefore, I find it funny when someone says they would believe in God if they saw a miracle. Or, when they say they would tentatively believe in miracles with proper proof. Chances are, they wouldn't, because they are neglecting the key word 'belief'. If they believed in miracles to begin with, they would find them abundant.

Replying to both you and Jar... The question, as I interpreted it, was what would it take to convince me that what someone else believes actually has tangible reality, i.e., is actually something true about the real world. The particulars of the definition of miracle aren't important because there's no evidence for any of them, as well as no evidence for the additional details that render miracles inaccessible to study. People are free to ignore unsupported beliefs at no risk to themselves, though with some exceptions. For instance, one shouldn't ignore the beliefs of a religious sect that thinks one is the devil and should be burned at the stake. As little sense as it might make to you, what process would you suggest that is superior for judging whether a purported phenomenon has tangible reality?My main point was that most people around the world hold weird beliefs, many of them not even remotely religious. The propensity of people to believe weird things is not persuasive toward changing the approach to assessing what is real and what is not. In fact, it is persuasive in the opposite direction, that one must practice vigilance against all the claims of the various groups of the flim-flam, the paranormal, the pseudoscience and the religious.Please note that I'm speaking informally and am not suggesting that the evidence says there's no such thing as miracles. I'm saying the evidence provides no support for the existence of miracles.Also keep in mind that if you believe that you've provided enough to convince me of your take on miracles, then since what you've provided is equal to what anyone could provide for their own individual take on miracles (i.e., nothing), I could therefore be convinced tomorrow to a different view since it is all equally persuasive (or equally unpersuasive depending upon your perspective). Not the kind of converts you want, I don't think. True. Miracles are in the eye of the beholder.--Percy

There is no way to test miracles for tangible reality. There may well be an outcome, and outcome that cannot be explained, or it might also be explainable.The point is, one does not prove miracles. Okay. I have no problem with any of that. Please note that I never claimed that there was evidence in support of miracles.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh, yes, I very much realize that. I was primarily trying to highlight that miraculous claims are not dissimilar from scads of other unsupported claims, for just one example, the claims of PSI researchers and their resort to the shyness effect (the cessation of phenomena once experimenters attempt to study them).--Percy

This is similar to stating one would find it odd that someone would believe in the existence of Extraterrestrial UFO's only if they observed one directly, or were given empirical proof. If one were actually seen, it would not be a belief, it would be a fact.On the other hand, if I were to witness actual miracles, it would not prove God's existence as fact, or prove God was the source of the miracle. Given a miracle that occurs in the right situation or context, this would certainly give me reason to believe in the existence of a God, even though I could not prove it as fact.Also, those who 'believe' in the existence of UFO's of extraterrestrial origin also believe they are abundant. They are prone to interpret any 'unexplained' phenomenon in the sky as being a direct observation of visitors from another world. Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

There's a reason why the saying is, "Seeing is believing."Seeing something certainly does not mean it's a fact. To me, personally witnessing a miracle (or a UFO) would be very poor evidence for miracles (or extraterrestrial life).Our senses are too easily fooled. I've seen rabbits pulled out of hats, ladies sawn in half, flowers pulled out of sleeves.... I don't "believe" for one split second that those events actually happened.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

I was an Atheist for the 1st 18 years of my life. To me, anyone or any book that even mentioned God was stupid. I never considered that there might be a God, why would I? I was smart and everything I had was better than yours. I didn't need a crutch like God, that was for fools.
Then my luck and my life changed. I now know it was God coming to call. I started wasting money on cocaine. Gold that I owned went down in value. Someone stole all my thousands of dollars in silver coins. An investment I made turned out to be with a crook that stole the money, I had an uninsured car accident that was my fault and ended up costing me alot of my savings and my car. I broke my Dad's car screwing around in it. I got a drunken driving ticket. There were alot more things but these are the ones that stand out now, 25 years later. It was as if everything I held dear, was being taken away from me. I had the worst possible luck, for the longest time. I remember my father saying,” Wow, I’ve never seen such bad luck.” It was true and with everything that was happening to me, it didn’t even seem possible. How could all this stuff keep happening to me over and over? I felt as if I was being crushed. At the end I remember thinking; life didn’t even seem worth living.All these things that happened to me were the biggest blessing of my life. The things that I thought were important were getting ripped from me, one painful piece at a time.One day there it was. The miracle I needed to save me. It didn’t look like a miracle. It looked more like one of those religious pamphlets, those stupid religious people leave around. It was on top of the telephone I was using, in a telephone booth. I had never read one of these before but I was feeling particularly low that day and thought, "what the heck, it can’t get any worse".I can’t tell you exactly what it said, except it talked about my life being a mess, which I agreed with. Then it said, all I had to do to fix everything, was say a little prayer that went something like this,” I take Jesus Christ into my life to be my personal savior.” There was more but I can’t remember that part. I closed my eyes and prayed earnestly for the first time in my life, exactly like it said and I tried as hard as I could to mean it. Anything was better than the life I had at that moment. I remember opening my eyes and everything was the same. I thought, well that didn’t work and laughed out loud. I think I expected a miracle to be unveiled right then. Little did I know what was in store for me?You can learn to have faith as I have and change your life from one of unhappiness to to one of joy. The only essential part of this story is to open your mind to the possibility that there might be a God. Then you have to ask him to show himself to you. Because if there is a God, he has to show himself to you. He will, I know he will because he has shown himself to me so many times. The big thing you have to remember is there will never be any proof. You will never be able to prove his existence to anyone else. The funny part is you have to have faith in him, to let him show himself to you. If you want to doubt what you are shown, you are given that choice also. Both ideas of faith and doubt will be given to you if you open your mind. If you haven’t yet opened your mind to the possibility that there might be a God, you can’t even hear any arguments that faith might put forth. To the unopened mind all these ideas are stupid. I know, that’s what I used to think. I used to believe anyone that believed in God or anything that can’t be proven by science was a fool. But the entire point is that God’s existence can be proven but only to you personally. And in ways you will never expect or be able to show anyone else. All you will be able to do is share your experiences and thoughts that proved his existence to you. To the doubter it will mean nothing and you will be a fool in his eyes.Let me give you an example of what I mean. One of my first steps was to read the Bible. I admit I didn’t get much out of the Old Testament but many parts of the New Testament made sense to me.Anyway, I had just read the part where Jesus says,” pray for your enemies.” That same day, I let one of the 19 year old neighbors into my house. A guy that had never been inside before. The next day, the house gets robbed and something inside me just knew it had been robbed by the guy I had let in the day before. So I thought,” okay if there is a God and this is his word, and then when I do what he says, something should happen. I asked God to prove his existence to me and you can too. Then I got down on my knees and prayed for the guy next door. I can’t tell you what I prayed, just that I did, and I thought of him as my enemy for ripping off my house. First before I tell you what happened, you need to know what kind of person I was at the time. I owned an AR 15 sub machine gun and used to tell people that if I ever heard anyone stealing my car out of the garage below my apartment, I would pump a million bullets through the floor and kill them. I was serious. I owned alot of guns and would kill to protect what was mine. Forgiveness was for idiots. So just getting on my knees and praying for someone that stole from me was a big step. But I had to know if there was a God.
The day after I prayed for the neighbor, he sees me outside and comes over. He starts to tell me about this car he had seen over at my house on the day of the robbery and what these guys looked like. Out of my mouth came something completely foreign to my way of thinking at that time. I said,” I just hope they got whatever they needed.” The guy immediately turns red and looks at the ground. Like lightning, the thought of, “there is your proof” comes into my mind. Stunned, I think my mouth fell open.So here is faith and doubt saying two different things to me. Faith says,” Wow, you would never say anything like that. God spoke through you to show you his existence. By your forgiveness and caring you actually helped the other guy. He couldn’t run from his actions. When he came over to talk to me, he was looking for your rightous indignation and a tirade about what jerks had robbed you so he could feel okay about robbing a jerk. But by caring more about the thieves than yourself he was embarrassed by his actions and looked at the ground.Doubt says,” That didn’t mean anything. He probably wasn’t even the one that robbed you. God didn’t prove anything.”I have two choices here between doubt and faith. They both say different things. Only one can be true. Which one do I choose? It was obvious to me and yet there was no proof I could show anyone else. But I knew in my heart. I could FEEL the truth of what faith had shown me. Faith’s thoughts felt good and loving. They made me feel better. Doubts thoughts made me feel worse and that my rightous indignation was justified. So there are the two choices. One makes me feel better and one makes me feel worse. If there is a God and he created me, wouldn’t it make sense that my feelings would point in the right direction?And by choosing faith, it made me want to change. By choosing faith I made the situation better. I hope I helped the other guy, but that’s up to him. At least I tried to help. I like that.

Beautiful.... Absolutely beautiful.What makes it all the grander is that it nearly verbatim mirrored my own situation and subsequent conversion, so I can identify with it on a deep and personal level.I miss that awe of the first time where He reveals Himself in an unmistakable way. Its such a special moment in time designed just for that person. Its just so pure and honest and beautiful.I loved your story and am utterly joyful that you're coming with us.

---

​

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

Wow, that God is a serious asshole, I hope he never calls on me. He stole all your money and set you up for at least one car accident.Religion as protection racket, I can already feel the love. TTFN,WK

That is an interesting story and I'm glad you shared it with us.I can't say how I would have acted in your exact situation with your neighbor, but I have been wronged by other a few times before, including being robbed. When I was younger, I could be easily described as "hot-headed." I was never violent (except with a couple of walls *ouch*), but I got upset and frustrated pretty easily and so when I was wronged I could get quite angry. I was a very aggressive driver as well. I wouldn't say there was a specific moment when I realized the folly and destructive power of my anger, but as I grew older I think I just grew up. I still get frustrated at times, but I have learned to forgive others when they wrong me and have also learned to recognize when I am at fault in a situation where I would have formerly placed the blame on someone else for "making" me feel a certain way.I have also done some pretty stupid things (including, like you, getting heavily involved in drugs and causing a motor accident due to careless driving, oh, and getting a DUI - all many years ago) and gotten myself into runs of "bad luck." As I have gotten older I realize that most of my "bad luck" comes from mistakes and/or bad choices I have made. I have learned very valuable lessons, grown out of my youthful navete and anger and come to make better, smarter choices in my life - not perfect, just better and better all the time. Unless something is completely out of my control, I take responsibility for the decisions I make and how I feel when bad things happen or people are mean and don't chalk it up to "fate" or "bad luck" or blame my misery on someone else.I am generally very happy and I enjoy my life and am working to improve myself, help others and learn something new every day.The difference between you and me is that I didn't need God to do it. I am not saying that I am better because of that, but that it is not necessary to believe in God in order to make a change in your life.We all know when we are unhappy and we all have a little voice trying to tell us what to do. I just attribute that little voice to me. It sounds like me and everything! I trust myself to do the right thing and I can forgive myself and ask for forgiveness from others when I make mistakes.If I may ask, would you say that you might have changed your attitude without God just because you were "ready?" You felt at rock bottom and knew(?) that something had to change. Do you feel that you could have done that yourself or if you had happened into a Buddhist Temple or an Islamic tract (do they have those?) that described a way out of your misery that you would have followed one of those paths or any of the alternatives available out there?

---

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London