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Author Topic:   Faith and belief
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 124 (416970)
08-18-2007 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
08-17-2007 9:17 AM


Please provide links to the peer reviewed reports
There is scientific investigation on the human power of intention and manifestation.
Please provide links to those "scientific investigations".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 08-17-2007 9:17 AM pelican has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 32 of 124 (416984)
08-18-2007 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by pelican
08-18-2007 6:12 AM


Manna Fest
dameeva writes:
The collective human energy on the subject of god at any one time is so immense, that a form of god or god form must manifest if it has not already. The question uppermost in my mind, in view of the mounting evidence for a human creative force, is how will god manifest?
Being Catholic, I believe God has already manifested Himself...{notice I say Himself}, and that His manifestation is Jesus Christ.
Bear with ME here, because I see an interesting angle.
Faith and belief are not enough to create reality. I will not buy that for more than a spare nickel. We all have subconscious thoughts and mental hang-ups, but you do yourself no justice.
First you say:
In 'what the bleep' it explains an experiment of human energy on water. Under strict controls, pure tap water was focussed upon and blessed by humans who were well practised in meditation. Their human energy was mindfully intent on the water which was then frozen.
Then you illustrate with this:
We become hard-wired into a way of thinking and blinkered to anything outside of our personal expereince. We become a product of the faith and belief system that we have experienced from childhood.
If these beliefs are changed, then so is the experience. For example, in relationships a woman may choose a partner who beats her because her belief is that she deserves to be beaten. Once that belief changes to, I do not deserve this, then doors will open and life will return her newly created belief. Both beliefs were true to her and worked equally.
See how you change from 'focused' to 'subconscious' energy?
I believe in the subconscious manifesting itself in life...we WILL do things without realizing why we do them. I believe in 'focus', and that ambition will get you what you desire in many cases.
What I don't believe is that simply sitting on are arse and wishing for something can be profitable...BUT...and here is where it is interesting...if there is a God, He may well give us what we need just by our having a 'working' faith. God promised to take care of us just as He cares for the lilies and the sparrows. Think about it a bit and you will realize that our faith makes God manifest Himself to us. Jesus was only recognized to be God by those with faith.
I don't get preachy much, but you must notice that God manifesting Hiself to those with faith is not the same as 'those with faith 'create' God. Boil this down to the bone, and you have your usual anti-religion argument 'is God purely a product of the minds of believers'?
I don't believe He is. I don't believe we can or ever will 'manifest' Him, but that He comes and goes of His own power, in His own time, at His own discrepancy. I don't believe that one single experiment about water will do or say ANYTHING about God. Even if your experiment were true, which I highly doubt, so what? Do you think it follows that some weird property of water will stop religion dead in it's tracks? Do you think God must act like water?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by pelican, posted 08-18-2007 6:12 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 1:52 AM anastasia has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 33 of 124 (416994)
08-18-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rob
08-18-2007 3:06 PM


Re: What the bleep is truth?
Hmm...Rob, you have an awful lot to say and I see how passionate you are. I really expected to be discussing this human energy with the converted as I am neither scientist or theologist, but I have expertise in life. I have observed and questioned and experienced to reach my conclusions. In my search for the truth of us I haven't found one group, one religion or one phylosophy that I could truly believe in or follow. I not only feel uncomfortable with the concepts, I react badly to exclusivity, but there is always some truth, that's why they survive.
However, I can no more accept bible quotations than I can scientology doctrine or the oneness movement phylosophy or ramths's teachings on face value. I try to steer clear of quotations from others perspectives, even Jesus. I'm more interested in what you believe and why you believe. I study a person and life from the inside out as opposed to most who see life from the outside in. I see this is the problem I have to overcome to get my points across.
Even in this last post I can see you hold beliefs that deny your humanity and I am not about to debate these beliefs because there would be no end to it. To find some common ground in our beliefs systems is nigh impossible because you are all the observers of life. Which brings me round to observing the photons.
My interpretation that maybe the photon is the creator and not the observer seems to have sent you on the defensive and I do see why as explained above. However, I do not see the observer and the photon as separate entities. They are connected. I do not see not see the photon as some god that plays us as puppets. In human terms we are both the photon and the observer, always there, representing the two aspects of humanity. The physical and the spiritual. One inner and one outer working simultaneously to produce life as we know it.
The spiritual age is upon us. I have experienced quite a few eras and there has been nothing like it before, causing much angst and confusion. We have to keep our eye on the ball and it is our potential as a human race that is emerging. This potential within us all manifests through faith and beliefs, of that I have no doubt. The most concentrated belief system is the one surrounding god. So will god manifest or are we messing it up with all the contraversy and disagreements?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rob, posted 08-18-2007 3:06 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 1:46 AM pelican has replied
 Message 99 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2007 1:44 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 34 of 124 (417000)
08-19-2007 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Adequate
08-18-2007 9:30 PM


Re: Is faith and belief manifesting god?
Why don't you ask about something I have said rather than what I haven't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2007 9:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-19-2007 5:00 AM pelican has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 35 of 124 (417023)
08-19-2007 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by pelican
08-18-2007 11:33 PM


Re: What the bleep is truth?
Dameeva, I'm just going to point some things out. You do with it what you will...
I am not trying to mock you. In the interest of truth, I have to tell you, I believe you're trying to merge concepts that are strictly in opposition to one another. I want to sustain what I have just said. So I will ask you some questions.
Dameeva:
I have observed and questioned and experienced to reach my conclusions.
So, you have reached conclusions then?
Dameeva:
In my search for the truth of us I haven't found one group, one religion or one phylosophy that I could truly believe in or follow.
Then... what 'conclusions' do you follow?
Dameeva:
I not only feel uncomfortable with the concepts, I react badly to exclusivity
Isn't that what conclusions are? See example a, b, and c below.
Dameeva:
I see this is the problem I have to overcome to get my points across.
You mean your conclusions, that exclude my own?
Dameeva:
Even in this last post I can see you hold beliefs that deny your humanity and I am not about to debate these beliefs because there would be no end to it.
Is it wrong for me to 'deny myself' as Jesus said we should do for the sake of others?
Or are you simply saying that I am wrong, and that you are right, yet you don't want to tell me the truth because it may hurt me?
Isn't the truth my only means of salvation?
Dameeva:
To find some common ground in our beliefs systems is nigh impossible because you are all the observers of life.
a. Is that the exclusive truth? ie. a conclusion?
Dameeva:
However, I do not see the observer and the photon as separate entities. They are connected.
That would exclude my position. Do you actually follow this philopophy?
Dameeva:
I do not see not see the photon as some god that plays us as puppets.
If He were, He wouldn't have given us the option of manipulating Himself. So niether do I...
Dameeva:
In human terms we are both the photon and the observer, always there, representing the two aspects of humanity. The physical and the spiritual.
b. Is that a conclusion... or just a philosophy that you follow?
Dameeva:
The spiritual age is upon us. I have experienced quite a few eras and there has been nothing like it before, causing much angst and confusion. We have to keep our eye on the ball and it is our potential as a human race that is emerging.
So the emerging human potential is angst and confusion?
Dameeva:
This potential within us all manifests through faith and beliefs, of that I have no doubt.
c. So that is a definitive conclusion, or philosophy that you follow?
Dameeva:
So will god manifest or are we messing it up with all the contraversy and disagreements?
There is no peace found in denying our differences and not speaking openly about it. By pretending we agree, the only thing that is crucified is the truth.
We can disagree without ugliness if we remain calm and realize that the truth was the truth before we endeavored to find it. We must give up our life for the real thing. Somebody has to change their mind.
God has -as you said, 'manifest'... Himself in the flesh already. And He doesn't doubletalk about it. His conclusions (absolutes) are not qualified with sophist rhetoric to soften the blows. His philosophy... is simply the truth.
I don't know who wove these enchantments upon you Dameeva, but I do hope you will take my words as intended. You're much too bright to allow your mind to be molested in that way. We cannot have it both ways (hot and cold) as they tell us, because that isitself one way. If it were truely non-exclusive then the 'one way for all not just me' would be ok with them, but it's not. Don't you see?
You have all of these treasures; both this, and that. You want and have it all... Ideas, concepts, and desires. But they are hollow and opposed to each other. "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see." (Revelation 3:17-18)
C.S. Lewis said, "You and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness." (Lewis --The Weight of Glory--)
The words of Christ have that goal in mind. The goal of no more funny business. What is the truth?
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
(John 14:6-9)
Jesus didn't leave you the option to both believe Him and not. He made it plain. Either you exclude Him, or you do not. And he leaves that choice to you... you're no puppet. So don't let the sophists play you for one.
You have one savior, and it is the truth. Find Him, and you won't need the extra baggage.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by pelican, posted 08-18-2007 11:33 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 7:46 AM Rob has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 36 of 124 (417024)
08-19-2007 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by anastasia
08-18-2007 10:44 PM


Re: Manna Fest
thanks for your observations. I really didn't intend to prove anything but rather to suggest that in view of mounting evidence that there is more to us than we have previously known. I am not into debating whether or not we have a creative power because my life experiences and self awareness tells me it is so.
I haven't reached this conclusion by watching the bleep and believing everything I am told. On the contrary, I have and I do challenge everything especially the bible interpretations. The bible in my mind is the worst offender in our society that leads us up the garden path.
Reading your post as a whole, your belief system is sticking out like a sore thumb. Tell me this belief system of yours doesn't create your perception of the world and yourself. Your perception becomes true through and because of, your faith and beliefs.
Within anyone's faith and belief system there is a physical manifestation and a spiritual manifestation. I have to speak of the physical because others can relate to it. However, it is rarely completely satisfactory, if ever. There are too many variables and perceptions in the physical.
On the other hand, the spiritual manifestation is the unseen, unmeasurable inner changes to our mentality, our understanding, our consciousness and beliefs. These are changing and creating new ways of being. The human spirit develops integrity, compassion, empathy, emotional maturity, wisdom, humility etc all created through the human experience, and not from wishing and hoping or focus. These are genuine manifestations that we can prove. These spiritual manifestations form new beliefs, new experiences and the process continues.
There are many new beliefs about god that is changing the face of religion. The humanity attributed to god is falling away so I wonder how these new beliefs connected to old beliefs will affect(manifest) the human experience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by anastasia, posted 08-18-2007 10:44 PM anastasia has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 37 of 124 (417049)
08-19-2007 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by pelican
08-19-2007 12:26 AM


Re: Is faith and belief manifesting god?
Why don't you ask about something I have said rather than what I haven't?
Er ... the usual reason. I know what you've told me, I don't know what you haven't told me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 12:26 AM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 38 of 124 (417053)
08-19-2007 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Adequate
08-18-2007 9:30 PM


Re: Is faith and belief manifesting god?
I am surprised at the intensity of this discussion. This was intended to promote thinking outside of the conventional box. But it seems you all need to put me in there and I ain't going.
I cannot answer scientific questions but be assured I don't draw my conclusions from heresay. My knowledge and understanding comes from self awareness and awareness of others, a life lived and observed.
I've watched and studied and listened and questioned and analized til I'm blue in the face. I stand by the idea that we have internal power\energy fueled by beliefs and faith in those beliefs that manifest within our humanity.
Given that the belief in a one god must be the most powerful of all because of shheer numbers, then it must be possible for that belief to either manifest god or bring god to our awareness in a form we can all recognize.
Edited by dameeva, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2007 9:30 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by anastasia, posted 08-19-2007 6:45 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 39 of 124 (417055)
08-19-2007 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Rob
08-19-2007 1:46 AM


Re: What the bleep is truth?
Rob, I really don't understand your motives for some things you say. Why would you say you were not trying to mock me? Do you normally mock people? It never entered my head but it did yours. Similarly, why did you think that I may not tell the truth so as to spare your feelings? Is that also what you do? I mention these as your perception of my concepts are clouded right there before we start.
Have you heard of projection of self? That's what you are doing, even though they have nothing to do with the topic and seem insignificant, those thoughts are influencing your perception of me and whatever I say. I can't get through that.
Maybe this is why you appear to be taking some things out of context. E.G I did not say potential was causing angst and confusion but the fact that we have never known anything like it before. The point I was making was the spiritual era is bringing it's own chaos.
Rob, can you sum all this up that you are addressing and tell me in more concise terms what it is you think I am advocating? From my point of view I am not in agreement or opposition to anyone.
I will reread your post and try to figure it out but I cannot address every point you have made. It just takes us further away from the topic. thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 1:46 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 9:32 AM pelican has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 124 (417065)
08-19-2007 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by pelican
08-19-2007 1:52 AM


Re: Manna Fest
thanks for your observations. I really didn't intend to prove anything but rather to suggest that in view of mounting evidence that there is more to us than we have previously known.
Fine. Please provide us links to the "mounting evidence".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 1:52 AM pelican has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 41 of 124 (417069)
08-19-2007 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by pelican
08-19-2007 7:46 AM


Re: What the bleep is truth?
Dameeva:
Have you heard of projection of self?
Yes.. it's called creating your own reality or creating God in your own image.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 7:46 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 7:29 PM Rob has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 42 of 124 (417155)
08-19-2007 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by pelican
08-19-2007 6:58 AM


Re: Is faith and belief manifesting god?
dameeva writes:
Given that the belief in a one god must be the most powerful of all because of shheer numbers, then it must be possible for that belief to either manifest god or bring god to our awareness in a form we can all recognize.
A way we can all recognize? Why are you so convinced that people who are not 'projecting belief' will see anything that the believers do?
Do we create our own 'reality', or someone else's?
Do I have to wait around for you to help me 'see' God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 6:58 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 8:42 PM anastasia has not replied
 Message 45 by pelican, posted 08-19-2007 8:48 PM anastasia has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 43 of 124 (417161)
08-19-2007 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rob
08-19-2007 9:32 AM


Re: What the bleep is truth?
Rob, I don't see projection of self the way you do. I was merely observing your feelings which had nothing whatsoever to do with god but everything to do with your perception. It's human. I really think you are taking offense, unless it's me?
Are you defending your faith and belief in the god of the bible? Do you feel I am attacking your beliefs? I am genuinely confused with your responses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 9:32 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 11:16 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 44 of 124 (417181)
08-19-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by anastasia
08-19-2007 6:45 PM


Re: Is faith and belief manifesting god?
Are you thinking we have to 'see' god with our eyes in order to recognize him? There has never been a physical human god and anyone claiming to be god will be cruxified, we know that. So how do you expect to see him? This was my initial query, from the beliefs held about god including the image one holds of god, how would god manifest in a form we could all recognize? When I say ALL, I mean believers and non-believers.
I reached this line of enquiry by suspending all my childhood beliefs of god and imagined the core essences of god. God all powerful, all knowing, all loving and creator of all things. These are 'godly' qualities.
They exclude judgement, anger, control, abuse, exploitation, punishment, reward and all the other human traits that do not fit the essence of godliness.
I am searching for a god whose presence is permanent and available to be experienced within the reality of humanity at any time. A constant that stands alone, that cannot be other than itself. Will the real god please stand up?
It is theory with little physical evidence I am presenting with the intention of promoting new ideas and concepts from open mindedness. I find the old and current beliefs of the human potential and god are unsatisfactory. They do not enhance the quality of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by anastasia, posted 08-19-2007 6:45 PM anastasia has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 45 of 124 (417184)
08-19-2007 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by anastasia
08-19-2007 6:45 PM


Re: Is faith and belief manifesting god?
Are you thinking we have to 'see' god with our eyes in order to recognize him? There has never been a physical human god and anyone claiming to be god will be cruxified, we know that. So how do you expect to see him? This was my initial query, from the beliefs held about god including the image one holds of god, how would god manifest in a form we could all recognize? When I say ALL, I mean believers and non-believers.
I reached this line of enquiry by suspending all my childhood beliefs of god and imagined the core essence of god. God all powerful, all knowing, all loving and creator of all things. These are 'godly' qualities.
They exclude judgement, anger, control, punishment, reward and all the other human traits that do not fit the essence of godliness.
I am searching for a god whose presence is permanent and available to be experienced within the reality of humanity at any time. A constant that stands alone, that cannot be other than itself. Will the real god please stand up?
It is mostly theory I am presenting with the intention of promoting new ideas and concepts from open mindedness. I find the old and current beliefs of the human potential and god are unsatisfactory and by expanding these beliefs there is a possibility of enhancing the quality of life for the whole of the human race. Amen to that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by anastasia, posted 08-19-2007 6:45 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by anastasia, posted 08-20-2007 2:35 PM pelican has replied

  
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