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Author Topic:   Human Programming
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 1 of 223 (371140)
12-20-2006 12:09 PM


I think it is a well-known fact that where you are born is an extremely strong factor as to what religious belief you will adhere too. If you grow up in a Muslim family, you will most likely be Muslim. I think the average Joe is pretty much aware of that.
The belief most of us defend so vehemently is nothing else then the belief of our parents or in some case, our friend or a social group we belong too.
So on one side we have the Christian, on the other a Muslim. Both defend there religious belief, and both disagree with the other based on what? Based on a programming they received when they were young.
Let’s take a step back for a second. We know that both sides’ claims are pretty similar.
They both have stories about people converting to there religion after having an incredible experience that leaves no doubt on the validity of the said religion. But how can one be certain? How can one know for sure that they just weren’t born in the wrong place?
The only way of being certain is to use the brain we have to figure out as much as we can with the data we’re presented with. I mean, everyone can agree that the best way to understand our environment (and ourselves) is to study it, to ask question, to try and know why and how. We’ve seen countless of time what dogmatic belief can do, if we all followed what we were taught without asking question, the earth would still be flat, it would still be the center of the universe, and we would stone people who work on Sundays.
How can a scholar believe in a book written hundreds of years ago without even questioning the validity of the book. How can someone follow so blindly a belief just because that’s what everyone around him taught to be true.
Fear of death and ignorance
Fire, wind, water, earth. There was a time when we didn’t quite understand theses, and we labeled them gods out of ignorance.
I myself don’t believe in any religion, being the son of a muslim father and a Christian mother (both not practicing though) I’ve never really been programmed into believing in god.
I want to know what makes you believe you are right? What drives you to defend your belief?
would it be by any chance simply because you were conditioned your whole life ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 12:54 PM Kader has replied
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 12-20-2006 1:29 PM Kader has replied
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2006 3:21 PM Kader has replied
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-20-2006 10:00 PM Kader has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 223 (371144)
12-20-2006 12:31 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 223 (371151)
12-20-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-20-2006 12:09 PM


I want to know what makes you believe you are right? What drives you to defend your belief?
would it be by any chance simply because you were conditioned your whole life ?
I personally think that can certainly be a major and in too many cases, exclusive point of origin.
So on one side we have the Christian, on the other a Muslim. Both defend there religious belief, and both disagree with the other based on what? Based on a programming they received when they were young.
In many cases that is absolutely true. What many folk forget is that religions are simply the Map, not the Territory. Christianity, Islam, Wicca, Taoism, Satanism, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism or any other religion is not GOD.
Like all maps, they must be tested constantly against reality and where they do not correspond with reality, questioned.
There does appear to be two kinds of people in the world:
  • those who look for Answers to questions.
  • those who look for answers to Question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 12:09 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 1:53 PM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 223 (371159)
12-20-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-20-2006 12:09 PM


Kader writes:
I want to know what makes you believe you are right? What drives you to defend your belief?
I grew up indoctrinated to be a christian fundamentalist. So, I'd say that from my earliest memories to my late teen years I was constantly being reminded of god by family and community. I defended my belief back then because I believed we lived in a magical world and that hating people was how you would find god.
On a personal side note, I now believe that religion does more harm than good when it comes to finding god. Take me, for example. After I realized that the world wasn't governed by magic or that love, not hate, is good, I abandoned all hope of finding god (if he/she/it exists). In other words, if there really is a god out there and that he/she/it is all love and all that stuff, religion is either misleading people into the wrong direction or causing them to abandon the journey.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 12:09 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 2:00 PM Taz has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 5 of 223 (371166)
12-20-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
12-20-2006 12:54 PM


quote:
Like all maps, they must be tested constantly against reality and where they do not correspond with reality, questioned.
Test it against reality. But wich reality?
See I think once your conditioned, you start distorting how you percieve the world around you. To a christian a small coicidence is taken as proof of the validity of the bible, while a huge contradiction is looked over.
And most of them think I am totally crazy. How can't I believe in god (what they mean is in the bible and in everything the bible say).
Well I'd like to point out that they woulnt either if they were born in a different family, with different beliefs...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 12:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 2:59 PM Kader has replied
 Message 42 by Larni, posted 12-22-2006 5:58 AM Kader has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 6 of 223 (371169)
12-20-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
12-20-2006 1:29 PM


quote:
I grew up indoctrinated to be a christian fundamentalist. So, I'd say that from my earliest memories to my late teen years I was constantly being reminded of god by family and community.
  —gasby
If you don't mind i'll ask some personal questions.
How is relations with your family now ?
How is it that you didn't make excuses up or simply put, why aren't you like so many religious people..in denial of reality as perceived by science ?
And do you miss/regret anything ? (maybe the appartenance of a group of people )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 12-20-2006 1:29 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 12-20-2006 3:22 PM Kader has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 223 (371179)
12-20-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Kader
12-20-2006 1:53 PM


Reality is the Universe we live in.
See I think once your conditioned, you start distorting how you percieve the world around you.
Some do. Those that look for Answers to Questions for example.
And most of them think I am totally crazy. How can't I believe in god (what they mean is in the bible and in everything the bible say).
I don't. Look at the thread Message 1.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 1:53 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 3:25 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 223 (371182)
12-20-2006 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-20-2006 12:09 PM


The belief most of us defend so vehemently is nothing else then the belief of our parents or in some case, our friend or a social group we belong too.
I think a good education in science can 'wipe the slate clean', so to speak type. I think it did for me (I was atheist in college).
But how can one be certain? How can one know for sure that they just weren’t born in the wrong place?
In my opinion, you're not suppose to be certain or 'for sure' about your religion as that would undermine faith, which, for some reason, is an important part (along with hope and love)
The only way of being certain is to use the brain we have to figure out as much as we can with the data we’re presented with. I mean, everyone can agree that the best way to understand our environment (and ourselves) is to study it, to ask question, to try and know why and how.
Hey, that sounds a lot like a science education.
How can a scholar believe in a book written hundreds of years ago without even questioning the validity of the book. How can someone follow so blindly a belief just because that’s what everyone around him taught to be true.
Fear of death and ignorance
You seem to leave out the possibility that a scholar can question the validity of a book written hundreds of years ago and then believe in it. After I was atheist a while, I started looking into the various religions of the world and when I got back around to reading the Bible (New Testament) again, I realized that Jesus really did know what he was talking about. He spoke so much truth that I have no problem believing that everything he said was true, including being God.
I want to know what makes you believe you are right? What drives you to defend your belief?
I think of myself as a person who has realized what you are typing about in the OP and then reconsidered christianity and came to the conclusion that it IS true.
would it be by any chance simply because you were conditioned your whole life ?
Any chance? Of course...I certainly accept it as a possibility. But being aware of it and actively considering it, I conclude that I have not accepted christianity just becuase that is the way I was raised, but because I critically investigated it and found that it is the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 12:09 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 3:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 223 (371183)
12-20-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Kader
12-20-2006 2:00 PM


Kader writes:
How is relations with your family now ?
I'd say pretty good. Some don't know I've abandoned my faith and some do. Those that do don't mind and those that don't don't mind.
How is it that you didn't make excuses up or simply put, why aren't you like so many religious people..in denial of reality as perceived by science ?
It's not just the magic versus science part that made me lose my faith. Being religious require you to be hateful. I hated black people, muslim people, hindu people, buddhist people, gay people, etc. Christian fundamentalists will come out and downright deny that they hate. But trust me, deep down they preach nothing but hate. That's how they can keep their identity.
Not just christianity. Practically every religion that's ever existed thrived on hate. Without hate, any religion would lose its identity and dies.
If god (if he/she/it exists) wants to throw me into a pit of fire for all eternity just because I refuse to hate, then is it really worth it to worship such an egoistic maniac?
Simply put, oen of the biggest factors that made me doubt my faith was meeting a gay person, befriending him, and seeing how he didn't have vampire teeth and slithered tongue like I was taught gay people were. That and basic kinematics in physics.
And do you miss/regret anything ?
I am a completely different person now. I don't think women are inferior like I used to to think. I don't think gay people are monsters like I used to think. I help other people not because I was promised heavenly rewards or hellish punishment. I help simply because we're all in this together! I don't need a burning bush to tell me killing, stealing, etc. are wrong.
I have lots of regrets. One of those was telling a gay person he need to find jesus.
By the way, I still keep my mouth shut at family meetings even when some of them rant about how evil them gays are.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 2:00 PM Kader has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 10 of 223 (371184)
12-20-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-20-2006 2:59 PM


Jar,
I read your post but couldn't reply since it was closed.
On what you base your belief that we need to be saved?
Do you think it is simply because you were told so, or do you came up with it from data you gathered around you ?
I know I ask a lot of question, but it help me understand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 2:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 3:33 PM Kader has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 223 (371185)
12-20-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Kader
12-20-2006 3:25 PM


On what you base your belief that we need to be saved?
Do you think it is simply because you were told so, or do you came up with it from data you gathered around you ?
I believe in salvation mostly for comfort reasons. I kinda hope that the questions will never end. But an afterlife is only a personal belief and certainly not something anyone living will ever know.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 3:25 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 12-20-2006 3:36 PM jar has replied
 Message 15 by Kader, posted 12-20-2006 3:51 PM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 223 (371186)
12-20-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
12-20-2006 3:33 PM


jar writes:
I believe in salvation mostly for comfort reasons.
Does this have anything to do with the fact that you're getting quite old... even for an ape? I often find that old people pay more attention to the afterlife and whatnot more than the rest of us.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 3:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 3:40 PM Taz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 223 (371188)
12-20-2006 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
12-20-2006 3:36 PM


Certainly possible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 12-20-2006 3:36 PM Taz has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 14 of 223 (371191)
12-20-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2006 3:21 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
You seem to leave out the possibility that a scholar can question the validity of a book written hundreds of years ago and then believe in it.
Sorry, you're right, I just assumed that in general it is the other way around.
Catholic Scientist writes:
In my opinion, you're not suppose to be certain or 'for sure' about your religion as that would undermine faith, which, for some reason, is an important part (along with hope and love)
I agree totally, there is no way to be sure, and that what's faith is all about. But you said something I wasnt sure I understood.
Catholic Scientist writes:
I think of myself as a person who has realized what you are typing about in the OP and then reconsidered christianity and came to the conclusion that it IS true.
When you say it IS true, you meant you think it is true. Taking into consideration your knowledge and your experience. But saying that is IS true, is like saying that you are certain of your belief.
Catholic Scientist writes:
Any chance? Of course...I certainly accept it as a possibility. But being aware of it and actively considering it, I conclude that I have not accepted christianity just becuase that is the way I was raised, but because I critically investigated it and found that it is the truth.
Can I ask, what in your research made you decide that christianity was the truth, is it personal or is it something anybody could go through and find the same answer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2006 3:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2006 4:02 PM Kader has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 15 of 223 (371192)
12-20-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
12-20-2006 3:33 PM


Comfort reason..
I talked witha good friend of mine, who is a strong believer. After hours of debate (friendly debate mind you) he came up with a similar answer.
"Because christianity is the only possible working religion"
To him, he already believed so deeply that he was imperfect and not worthy of god, that it was second nature to him. And with that assumption, how can any other religion work ? If jesus isn't here to save you.
It was simply comfortable to stay in the same mindset.
Sometimes I wish I was raised by religious parent, it sure would make things easier for me
Having the feeling to know is a comforting feeling..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 3:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 12-20-2006 4:37 PM Kader has replied

  
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