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Author Topic:   Why so friggin' confident?
Reality Man
Member (Idle past 5037 days)
Posts: 23
From: Ottawa ON, Canada
Joined: 01-10-2008


Message 1 of 413 (493064)
01-05-2009 7:09 PM


This is a faith topic, for you moderators out there...
When we read, let's say, a self help book by so and so well known author who so happens to be a specialist in the field you're curious about, you can safely trust most of what is said, and perhaps even improve your personality or your habits or whatever...
The author is a leading expert, he may be recommended by others, is critiqued, yaddy yaddya...; the subjet may be widely talked about, discussed, studied, bla bla, etc. etc.
What I mean to say is that, you can trust things that come from acknowlegded sources. When you say that a certain percentage of fruits are citrus and you can support that claim by referring to a government study report, then it is a valid source and point in any or most discussions.
Okay so here comes the typical Atheist question: Why are believers so sure that what they are tought in sunday school, what they read in the bible, is, no questions asked, True, with a capital 'T'!?
I just don't get why someone can have a strong belief in something that in my personal opinion has so little substance. It's just: God created the Earth, created man in his own image *Period* now offer the church your loyalty and money, or else you go to Hell you bastard!
Who said that? What qualifies him/her to write a book about the way we should live, what we should believe in, and and how badly you'll suffer if we don't do it. Sounds like a power trip to me...
So please, someone explain to me what Rational belivers justify all that epic story material to be fact. I need substance people, and please don't say that God wrote the Bible, or that God placed the ideas into some dude's head. Did God tell me to write an essay about Shakespeare's understanding of madness, 'cause I only got a modest 78% on it, and I worked hard on it
I'm bored and lonely, so don't judge me!
Peace, Prosperity, and ummm....
Edited by Reality Man, : or you know, the usual...
Edited by Reality Man, : No reason given.
Edited by Reality Man, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 413 (493068)
01-05-2009 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Reality Man
01-05-2009 7:09 PM


I see a discussion of the evidence for the Exodus in your future. Convince me it won't happen.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Reality Man, posted 01-05-2009 7:09 PM Reality Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Reality Man, posted 01-05-2009 7:40 PM Admin has replied

Reality Man
Member (Idle past 5037 days)
Posts: 23
From: Ottawa ON, Canada
Joined: 01-10-2008


Message 3 of 413 (493069)
01-05-2009 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
01-05-2009 7:28 PM


It won't happen, happy? I admit, I never read the Bible, but I listen to a lot of discussions and stuff, enough to the point that I can think in terms of "Black Boxes" a programmers' term for a functional object that receives input and ejects output, and of which the precise workings of that "black box" is not important to the users.
Any way, all that to say that, I understand the generics of The Bible, and the basics of religion and all of that pretty stuff.
But I guess to be perfectly fair, one can say I am only half ignorant, no wait, three-quarters ignorant. So my case ain't the worst.
The root of intelligence is to be able to define one's position in the world, humility if you will, so Ha!
Edited by Reality Man, : No reason given.
Edited by Reality Man, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-05-2009 7:28 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 01-06-2009 8:51 AM Reality Man has replied
 Message 7 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 10:24 AM Reality Man has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 413 (493122)
01-06-2009 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Reality Man
01-05-2009 7:40 PM


Someone will reply that they have evidence that the Bible is true. You'll say they don't. You'll settle on an example, perhaps the Exodus, and start discussing the evidence for it. This has been done to death, which is fine, nothing wrong with repeats because the participants and audience are ever-changing, but I'd like to wait a while before starting the equivalent of another Exodus thread.
So convince me that your thread won't end as just another Exodus thread. I understand the point you're making, but the lack of specifics make it likely that it will take the path of least resistance end up as another Exodus thread. Provide some specifics that insure it won't take that direction.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Reality Man, posted 01-05-2009 7:40 PM Reality Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Reality Man, posted 01-09-2009 3:41 AM Admin has not replied

Reality Man
Member (Idle past 5037 days)
Posts: 23
From: Ottawa ON, Canada
Joined: 01-10-2008


Message 5 of 413 (493484)
01-09-2009 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
01-06-2009 8:51 AM


I guess if I were to rephrase my question, it would be...
What is Faith? or what it is about faith that makes people so determined that what they believe in is as real as the keyboard I'm typing on.
This has nothing to do with enslaved hebrews magically crossing a sea, and wandering the desert for 40 years.
As a guy with no faith whatsoever, I want someone to baby spoon feed me the rational (the key word here is 'rational') reasoning behind the strong belief people have for things that as of yet have no substance, physical or theoretical, or have such an abstract application to reality.
This is a question of curiosity, I simply want to discuss the science behind faith, and one's absolute certainty that something incredible, such as God or a virgin giving birth or miracles, exists.
Edited by Reality Man, : No reason given.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 413 (493529)
01-09-2009 9:37 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 7 of 413 (493538)
01-09-2009 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Reality Man
01-05-2009 7:40 PM


I admit, I never read the Bible, but I listen to a lot of discussions and stuff, enough to the point that I can think in terms of "Black Boxes" a programmers' term for a functional object that receives input and ejects output, and of which the precise workings of that "black box" is not important to the users.
Incredible!!! You say you never read the Bible, but you want to have a discussion about faith and belief with those who do.
Let me ask you one question. Why should those who have faith in the God of the Bible waste our time reasoning with someone who won't take the time to read the most read book ever printed?
If you aren't asking the right questions, you aren't ready for the right answers, or will even agree that there are right questions and right answers.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 01-09-2009 10:35 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 12 by lyx2no, posted 01-09-2009 12:58 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 20 by Rahvin, posted 01-09-2009 2:33 PM John 10:10 has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 413 (493541)
01-09-2009 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 10:24 AM



Let me ask you one question. Why should those who have faith in the God of the Bible waste our time reasoning with someone who won't take the time to read the most read book ever printed?
If you aren't asking the right questions, you aren't ready for the right answers, or will even agree that there are right questions and right answers.
Sooooo amusing. This is EXACTLY the issue with near enough to 100 % of the creationists who drop in here arguing against evolution.
If we are expected to engage those maybe you should go to the trouble of engaging this guy (though I agree with your feelings on this).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 10:24 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 11:03 AM NosyNed has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 9 of 413 (493546)
01-09-2009 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by NosyNed
01-09-2009 10:35 AM


Re:
Sooooo amusing. This is EXACTLY the issue with near enough to 100 % of the creationists who drop in here arguing against evolution.
If we are expected to engage those maybe you should go to the trouble of engaging this guy (though I agree with your feelings on this).
This section of the EvC forum has nothing to do with evolution. It's the place where people of faith and belief in the God of the Bible can share with those who have no faith and belief in the God of the Bible.
But the starting place is that someone should at least read the Bible before entering into dialogue about the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 01-09-2009 10:35 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2009 11:30 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 11 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-09-2009 12:12 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 01-09-2009 1:52 PM John 10:10 has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 10 of 413 (493549)
01-09-2009 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 11:03 AM


Re:
But the starting place is that someone should at least read the Bible before entering into dialogue about the Bible.
I see that evangelism isn't really your calling
And although he mentions the Bible, he's obviously looking at more than just Christianity. Do you expect him to have read EVERY single religious text before he can ask questions regarding "faith"???
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 11:03 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 11 of 413 (493551)
01-09-2009 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 11:03 AM


Re:
This section of the EvC forum has nothing to do with evolution. It's the place where people of faith and belief in the God of the Bible can share with those who have no faith and belief in the God of the Bible.
The purpose of the faith and belief forum of EvC is to DISCUSS and EXPLORE the evidence and logic behind all religious faiths and beliefs, not just Christianity, in a rational manner. The rules of logic still apply to this section of the forum. EvC is not a Christian evangelism board. If you want that, go to GodTube or some Christian evangelism forum. You can share to your hearts content, but if it does not follow the rules of evidence and logic prepare to have your arguments rebutted.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 11:03 AM John 10:10 has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 12 of 413 (493553)
01-09-2009 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 10:24 AM


Because
Incredible!!! You say you never read the Bible, but you want to have a discussion about faith and belief with those who do.
Because the Bible doesn't have a copy write on faith. Some have faith that they have the ability to follow an argument without interjecting their every little prejudice into it no matter the relevancy. But we know that's not true.
for example:
If you aren't asking the right questions, you aren't ready for the right answers, or will even agree that there are right questions and right answers.
From whence comes your faith that you are asking the right and we are not? Are you sure you're immune to the wiles of Satin. No one is easier to fool then a man who is certain.
And please don't give me a handful of Bible quotes to answer the question unless you can show extra-biblically that they aren't the devils tricks.
I'm with you, Reality Man, I don't get it.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 10:24 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 1:10 PM lyx2no has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 13 of 413 (493554)
01-09-2009 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by cavediver
01-09-2009 11:30 AM


Re:
And although he mentions the Bible, he's obviously looking at more than just Christianity. Do you expect him to have read EVERY single religious text before he can ask questions regarding "faith"???
No, I don't. But he said he had NEVER read the Bible at all, only "listened to lots of discussions and stuff."
Maybe that's the way many here at the EvC forum do things, but I read for myself what a book says rather than just listen what others have to say about the book. I certainly don't discuss Bible truth with those who won't even read the Bible.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2009 11:30 AM cavediver has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 14 of 413 (493556)
01-09-2009 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by lyx2no
01-09-2009 12:58 PM


Re: Because
And please don't give me a handful of Bible quotes to answer the question unless you can show extra-biblically that they aren't the devils tricks.
C.S Lewis said this about devils:
"There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight."
The truth is that real devils exist, and to be free from their influences we are to resist them and submit ourselves to the God of the Bible.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : added additional CS Lewis quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by lyx2no, posted 01-09-2009 12:58 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Huntard, posted 01-09-2009 1:22 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 16 by lyx2no, posted 01-09-2009 1:26 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 17 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-09-2009 1:31 PM John 10:10 has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 15 of 413 (493557)
01-09-2009 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by John 10:10
01-09-2009 1:10 PM


Re: Because
John 10:10 writes:
The truth is that real devils exist, and to be free from their influences we are to resist them and submit ourselves to the God of the Bible.
Of course, you have no evidence* for this statement. It could be that you have to place your faith in Mohammed or Thor or whatever other deity. Or it could be that devils don't exist at all.
*with evidence I don't mean you quoting an old book that you THINK is the truth, but for which you have no supporting evidence.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by John 10:10, posted 01-09-2009 1:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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