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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Panda Member (Idle past 3738 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
It relates to honesty. Probably not something you are interested in.
"TBH"? I don't follow. crashfrog writes:
No - I used the word 'deranged'. And again, you're seeing anger or emotion or something where none exists.You can look it up, if you want. Edited by Panda, : Removed all references to crashfrog's lies, as per Admin request."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Deer and boar aren't the only things people hunt, Oni. Varmint aren't the only things people hunt, crash. Anything bigger than a varmint, like boar and bigger, requires a larger caliber (by law) than a .22.
Almost everybody's first rifle is a .22, because it's the easiest to teach kids to shoot with. Low recoil, low noise, the weapons are lighter. I thought you said hunting round, not "teaching Jr. to shoot cans off the shed" rounds. My bad. - Oni
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Most people don't walk around with a handgun strapped to their holster like Billy the Kid. Most of us ar not armed. Sure. Most of us aren't in any particular danger of being attacked. I don't think it's surprising that people - even ones in high-crime areas - might say to themselves "you know, I think the risk of owning and carrying a firearm is worse, to me, than the risk of being attacked." People make their own choices about how best to defend themselves, because every situation is different and unique. I'm not saying that people have to defend themselves in any particular way. In fact, you're the one saying that. You're the one saying that anybody who makes a decision to use a handgun to defend themselves is making the wrong decision, 100% of the time, and we need to stop them from doing that. I disagree. I don't think you can make that decision for people.
In fact, where I live it is illegal to do so and we all get along just fine. Where do you live? (Surely not the "Dark Side of the Moon.")
But that aside, what are you suggesting? That judo and knifeplay aren't going to be effective self-defense techniques for the wheelchair-bound. That's all. It's hard for me to see that as a contentious point.
I countinue to believe the goal should be that no one walks around armed. I see it differently, I guess. I believe the goal should be that people walk around safe.
Trust me, no one gives a shit about you. You say that, in fact a lot of you say that, but I have objective evidence that you're all wrong. Did somebody hack EvC Forum because of something you said, ever? Do you have almost 20,000 posts in 9 years? Those aren't from me talking to myself, Oni. That's because when I argue with people, they can't seem to help but argue against me half-a-dozen strong. It's just objectively the case that people want to argue with me. I'm sure you'll tell me it's something I'm doing, and I don't deny that it is - there's something about me, and I jokingly use synedoche to ascribe it to the frog avatars I'm always using, that causes you people to lose your shit.
I show you a video of Kyle Maynard, and douoble amputee doing MMA (mind you, Kyle can't naturally pick up a gun a fire it either without some special device I've never seen) and you actually take to argue that too. I didn't see Kyle Maynard, who isn't a paraplegic, do any MMA in your video. I saw him roll around on the floor while a guy with arms and legs tried to grapple him. And what a surprise, you can't elbow-lock a guy who doesn't have any elbows. But you can sure as hell kick the shit out of him, and the truth of the matter is that Kyle Maynard, despite training 24-7 in mixed martial arts, gets the shit kicked out of him in virtually every single match. So it's a pretty shitty example. So obviously I argued with it. Why did you think Kyle Maynard, who is neither an effective Mixed Martial Artist nor a paraplegic, was a good counter to my contention that paraplegics aren't going to be any good at Mixed Martial Arts? See if you can talk me through that "flow".
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So what I'm saying is, I'd turn that decision over to someone who does. Ok, I guess, but your clever plan to have other people solve all the problems isn't terribly compelling, and it kind of makes me wonder what use it is to talk about it with you. Can you send someone over who actually knows what they're talking about?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Varmint aren't the only things people hunt, crash. Where did I assert that varmints are the only things that people hunt? Be specific.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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That doesn't really support your contention. Seems like a good piece of evidence to start looking into the effects of strict gun laws. I admit, every country has it's own unique issues to deal with, but a positive outlook rather than negative nit-picking I feel would work to our advantage in the long run.
Just psuedo-cops with knives, bats, and MMA? Why draw the line there? Again, just giving alternatives for self-defesne that doesn't involve all of us strapped with a Glock yelling Yippy Ki Yay motherfuckers at the first sign of danger.
And that's not fair. The biggest guys are going to dominate everyone else. Where are you living that this is happen to a degree that the people there are better off armed?
Well okay, but then what's the point in reducing handguns and "assault rifles"? I presumed it was 'cause they're dangerous. Wait, you misunderstand. They're not 'dangerous' in the hands of expert shooters. They're dangerous when stolen and used by idiots out to harm people. I was suggesting eliminating those peoples source of acquiring guns. And, it would be fine to do so since those weapons are not of any real necessity to anyone aside from a hobby.
And when the experts tell you that 'no overlap' is impossible, then what? Have they though?
And when they tell you that you can't classify guns by how they're gonna be used, then what? Have they though? And note, that I changed by opinion to simply making the weapons illegal like in the UK. - Oni
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4042 Joined: Member Rating: 8.0
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I didn't see Kyle Maynard, who isn't a paraplegic, do any MMA in your video. I saw him roll around on the floor while a guy with arms and legs tried to grapple him. And what a surprise, you can't elbow-lock a guy who doesn't have any elbows. But you can sure as hell kick the shit out of him, and the truth of the matter is that Kyle Maynard, despite training 24-7 in mixed martial arts, gets the shit kicked out of him in virtually every single match. So it's a pretty shitty example. So obviously I argued with it. Why did you think Kyle Maynard, who is neither an effective Mixed Martial Artist nor a paraplegic, was a good counter to my contention that paraplegics aren't going to be any good at Mixed Martial Arts? See if you can talk me through that "flow". Are paraplegics particularly good at using firearms? Do paraplegics make up a statistically significant percentage of gun-related deaths or even crime in general, whether as the aggressors or the victims? Or is this as pointless a tangent as it appears to be?The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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quote: So he didn't bring a gun but stole one there, and he wasn't deterred by a room full of armed policemen ... Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Where did I assert that varmints are the only things that people hunt? Be specific. Equally I would ask you where did I suggest deer and boar are the only things people hunt for? See, I was being a sarcastic comic again turing what you said to me back onto you. - Oni
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Equally I would ask you where did I suggest deer and boar are the only things people hunt for? In Message 866 when you denied that .22 LR is a hunting round. The basis for your denial, you stated, was that you couldn't hunt deer or boar with it.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Sure. Most of us aren't in any particular danger of being attacked. Then we can agree that carrying a handgun around in your day to day life is a bit excessive and unnecessary.
In fact, you're the one saying that. You're the one saying that anybody who makes a decision to use a handgun to defend themselves is making the wrong decision, 100% of the time, and we need to stop them from doing that. Yes and no. Yes, we should come up with stricter gun laws that reduces the amount of guns on the streets. One of those methods would be to get rid of handguns. I don't however believe that people currently using handguns to defend themselves ar making the wrong decision because they ARE acting in accordance to the law (assuming that they are actually following the rules of gun ownership). I was just suggesting other means of self-defense rather than strapping a gun to your side and walking around the city like that.
Where do you live? (Surely not the "Dark Side of the Moon.") Close though... NYC
That judo and knifeplay aren't going to be effective self-defense techniques for the wheelchair-bound. That's all. It's hard for me to see that as a contentious point. Fair enough. But are you then suggesting all wheelchair bound people carry handguns? You've admitted most of us aren't in any particular danger of being attacked. So why should wheelchair people be worried to the point of arming themselves just to go outside?
I see it differently, I guess. I believe the goal should be that people walk around safe. I agree. But are you suggesting we are all safer walking around with guns?
u say that, in fact a lot of you say that, but I have objective evidence that you're all wrong. Did somebody hack EvC Forum because of something you said, ever? Do you have almost 20,000 posts in 9 years? Those aren't from me talking to myself, Oni. That's because when I argue with people, they can't seem to help but argue against me half-a-dozen strong. It's just objectively the case that people want to argue with me. I'm sure you'll tell me it's something I'm doing, and I don't deny that it is - there's something about me, and I jokingly use synedoche to ascribe it to the frog avatars I'm always using, that causes you people to lose your shit. Okay then, you're not crazy at all.
So it's a pretty shitty example. So obviously I argued with it. Why did you think Kyle Maynard, who is neither an effective Mixed Martial Artist nor a paraplegic, was a good counter to my contention that paraplegics aren't going to be any good at Mixed Martial Arts?
Listen, I felt your counter to me saying there are alternative means of self-defense by bringing up the paraplegic was silly and I countered it with a silly video. That's all. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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In Message 866 when you denied that .22 LR is a hunting round. I didn't deny anything, dude. What the fuck is wrong with you? I said I didn't think of a .22 when I thought of hunting rounds. See:
Oni writes: But I can tell you I don't think of a .22 as a hunting round. And I only said that because you said most people think .22 when they think of a hunting round. When someone says "I'm going hunting" I don't personally think of them using a .22, I think of a bigger caliber. - Oni
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
That's because when I argue with people, they can't seem to help but argue against me half-a-dozen strong. I think I've figured out why, but this isn't the place for it. Let me know if you want me to spell it out for you.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
crashfrog writes: In fact, you're the one saying that. You're the one saying that anybody who makes a decision to use a handgun to defend themselves is making the wrong decision, 100% of the time, and we need to stop them from doing that. I disagree. I don't think you can make that decision for people. I think Onifre is making a probabilistic argument. It's the same as the argument for childhood vaccinations, where some children suffer adverse effects from the vaccination itself, but overall childhood mortality drops. Gun deaths will be greatly reduced if people do not have guns for personal defense. Some people will die who wouldn't had they been armed, but there will be dramatically fewer gun deaths. We're going to have to make a similar decision about driving our cars sometime within the next 20 or 30 years. With cars under computer control automobile deaths will drop dramatically, but deaths will still occur due to software and hardware bugs, hardware failures and information errors/inaccuracies. Some will argue that they are safer when they have full control of their car, and maybe some of them will be right, but in the aggregate the more cars controlled by people the less safe everyone around them will be. It's the same for guns. In the vast majority of situations, the mere presence of a gun makes everyone nearby less safe. --Percy
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
As crash has no desire to debate, I will not engage on debate with him
But I will continue to point out his errors and misrepresentations.
.22 long rifle is the classic "varmint round."
Wrong. .22 long rifle is a plinking and small animal round. It is too underpowered for varmints.
quote: Varmint rifle - Wikipedia A varmint rifle is not on off the shelf .22. It is a a rifle that shoots rounds with much more powder than a 22 long rifle.. Thus they have a classic necked down rifle cartridge.
Left to right.22 LR, .22-250 and .25-06 The .25-06 is also capable for deer.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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