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Author
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Topic: Life without God
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4163 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 61 of 85 (608883)
03-14-2011 10:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 58 by slevesque
03-14-2011 9:50 PM
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slevesque writes: I don't know what group I would fit into?? I guess I am ignorant as to what group I am supposed to support although I really don't like being called anything. One of the reasons I am on this forum is to learn, and to gain a better understanding of my own beliefs, they are by no means set in stone. I want people to challenge my worldviews. Fair enough, but don't take this as ''a group you are supposed to support'', because it's not about that. It is just words that we define to identify people's different worldviews. Saying that your personnal worldview is more like atheism doesn't mean you have to ''support the group''.
Right or wrong is subjective. Many people would disagree about what is moral. I base my decisions on my own Idea of what is right and wrong...on many things we would agree I am sure. On others we would probably differ. But on those thigns that we do differ, is one of us more correct then the other ? Or are we both correct ? or are we both incorrect ? If I say that to kill retarded children is ok, and you disagree, how do we settle this ? This is a good question, one that has been faced many times, slavery... forced sterilization in VA of people deemed not worthy of breeding....Nazis...use of certain weapons...Views change of what is ok and not all the time. What are you suggesting we do to all get on the same page?? I am not trying to argue any side.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by slevesque, posted 03-14-2011 9:50 PM | | slevesque has not replied |
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4658 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: 05-14-2009
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I don't see why not. Because ''everything just IS''. That is why. Now, because of this foundational aspect of atheism, if you do assign the labels of ''good'' or ''bad'' to different things, it won't be for goodness's sake, because goodness does not actually exist. Rather, it will rather be through a philosophy of morality, the most prominent (in my opinion) amongst atheists being utilitarianism, and so in this case, you will do good for it's usefulness sake.
I can listen to music for the sake of listening music, can't I? (It would be strange to do so for any other reason.) And I can do so on the basis that I have a preference for (let us say) the Goldberg Variations over (for example) the "songs" of whales, without having to believe that there is some supernatural being with a preference for Bach over Megaptera novaeangliae (or possibly vice versa); and while accepting that a humpback whale would disagree with my judgment. Now just as I prefer noises that appeal to my aesthetic sensibility, I prefer situations which appeal to my ethical sensibility. A lion will kill another lion, steal his harem, and eat their cubs to make way for his own; he does so apparently without feeling shame (nor incurring blame from the lionesses). I find that to emulate the lion is not to my taste; I do not need to add to this the proposition that it is not to God's taste. I abstain from doing so solely for the sake of not doing so, because it is amongst the things that I don't want to do. But then, how can you condemn someone who does something you think is wrong ? If he claims 'he does the things he does just because he wants to', just like you. A pedophile, for example ?
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4658 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: 05-14-2009
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So the stronger one is right ? Or the one with the most people who agree with him ? Or is nobody right 'in the reality of things' ? And how would you know if voting is a good way to approach these situations ? By having a vote ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 9:58 PM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4163 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 64 of 85 (608886)
03-14-2011 10:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by slevesque
03-14-2011 10:16 PM
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slevesque writes: So the stronger one is right ? Or the one with the most people who agree with him ? Or is nobody right 'in the reality of things' ? And how would you know if voting is a good way to approach these situations ? By having a vote ? What do you sugest? LOL I am going to be suspende for this...LOL...JK
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by slevesque, posted 03-14-2011 10:16 PM | | slevesque has not replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4163 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 65 of 85 (608887)
03-14-2011 10:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by slevesque
03-14-2011 10:16 PM
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slevesque writes: So the stronger one is right ? Or the one with the most people who agree with him ? Or is nobody right 'in the reality of things' ? And how would you know if voting is a good way to approach these situations ? By having a vote ? It is easy to "answer" a question with another one. But now is when you tell us what you think we should do...what is your opinion???
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by slevesque, posted 03-14-2011 10:16 PM | | slevesque has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by slevesque, posted 03-14-2011 10:38 PM | | fearandloathing has replied |
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4658 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: 05-14-2009
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It is easy to "answer" a question with another one. But now is when you tell us what you think we should do...what is your opinion??? In my worldview, absolute morality does exist, and so one person will be right, and the other will be wrong. We now which is which by comparing to this absolute morality
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 67 of 85 (608891)
03-14-2011 10:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 62 by slevesque
03-14-2011 10:14 PM
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Now, because of this foundational aspect of atheism, if you do assign the labels of ''good'' or ''bad'' to different things, it won't be for goodness's sake, because goodness does not actually exist. Only in the sense that the "goodness" of music is does not stand alone as an objective aspect of the universe in the way that (for example) the valence of oxygen does, but rather in relation to someone's judgment. (And you yourself only say that it is so in relation to God's judgment --- it is apparently hard to conceive of good or evil without conceiving of someone who believes things to be good or evil.)
But then, how can you condemn someone who does something you think is wrong ? If he claims 'he does the things he does just because he wants to', just like you. A pedophile, for example ? Because I don't want him to. (And I don't see how the theist's answer of "because my imaginary friend doesn't want him to" is really superior, because of course the pedophile is free to reply that his imaginary friend is totally cool with pedophilia. It is surprising how few theists live in the apprehension that they personally might actually be damned. To misquote Sartre: L'enfer, c'est pour les autres.) Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by slevesque, posted 03-14-2011 10:14 PM | | slevesque has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 68 of 85 (608892)
03-14-2011 10:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 66 by slevesque
03-14-2011 10:38 PM
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So the stronger one is right ? Or the one with the most people who agree with him ? Or is nobody right 'in the reality of things' ? And how would you know if voting is a good way to approach these situations ? By having a vote ? In my worldview, absolute morality does exist, and so one person will be right, and the other will be wrong. We now which is which by comparing to this absolute morality Yes, well, in practice "we" haven't been much good at that, have we? When the Protestant said to the Catholic: "God wants me to burn you alive", and the Catholic replied: "No, God wants me to burn you alive", they had both done their best to compare their views to absolute morality, and yet come to contrary results. Perhaps God, who is supposedly omnipotent, could have made himself a little clearer, so that we'd know who, if anyone, he wants us to burn. Unless and until that happens, we are left with a bunch of our own subjective opinions. Apparently the main moral difference between me and a theist is that I know that and he doesn't.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by slevesque, posted 03-14-2011 10:38 PM | | slevesque has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 70 by slevesque, posted 03-15-2011 3:21 AM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4163 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: 02-24-2011
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Message 69 of 85 (608893)
03-14-2011 10:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 66 by slevesque
03-14-2011 10:38 PM
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slevesque writes: It is easy to "answer" a question with another one. But now is when you tell us what you think we should do...what is your opinion??? In my worldview, absolute morality does exist, and so one person will be right, and the other will be wrong. We now which is which by comparing to this absolute morality I don't follow you?? your use of English is puzzling in regards to your last sentence?? Once again...where do you get your absolute morality?? From who?? god...whose god ..which god...what makes yours right?? What makes my personal views any less valid than yours??
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by slevesque, posted 03-14-2011 10:38 PM | | slevesque has not replied |
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4658 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: 05-14-2009
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I think you're missing the key difference here: In my worldview, absolute good and bad exists. It does not depend on my opinion of it. I can be mistaken about what it is, with the consequences this can have for myself and others. In an atheistic worldview, it does not exist. Whatever good and wrong is from your POV, it is strictly dependant on yourself, with consequences that are ultimately either good or bad only in the eye of the observer. In reality, killing thousands of people is no different then mowing the lawn.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 10:52 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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Granny Magda
Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: 11-12-2007 Member Rating: 3.8
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Message 71 of 85 (608902)
03-15-2011 3:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 70 by slevesque
03-15-2011 3:21 AM
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Hi Slevesque,
In reality, killing thousands of people is no different then mowing the lawn. With the slight difference that when I mow my lawn, the grass doesn't scream and tearfully beg me to spare its life. The only moral principle that need be assumed is that suffering is bad, something that scarcely takes a great leap of faith. All further moral principles simply follow from this; they seek to reduce suffering. Mutate and Survive
On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by slevesque, posted 03-15-2011 3:21 AM | | slevesque has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 74 by slevesque, posted 03-15-2011 5:03 AM | | Granny Magda has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 72 of 85 (608903)
03-15-2011 3:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 70 by slevesque
03-15-2011 3:21 AM
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quote:
I think you're missing the key difference here: In my worldview, absolute good and bad exists. It does not depend on my opinion of it. I can be mistaken about what it is, with the consequences this can have for myself and others.
Unless you KNOW what is and is not absolutely right or wrong it's not a key difference at all. It's merely an opinion which has no practical import at all.
quote:
In an atheistic worldview, it does not exist. Whatever good and wrong is from your POV, it is strictly dependant on yourself, with consequences that are ultimately either good or bad only in the eye of the observer. In reality, killing thousands of people is no different then mowing the lawn.
Even the first sentence is false. There's simply no rational reason to link a belief in absolute morality with a belief in God. The last sentence on the other hand is simply vile. How can you justify saying such things under your "absolute morality" ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by slevesque, posted 03-15-2011 3:21 AM | | slevesque has replied |
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4658 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: 05-14-2009
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Message 73 of 85 (608904)
03-15-2011 4:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
03-15-2011 3:31 AM
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Unless you KNOW what is and is not absolutely right or wrong it's not a key difference at all. It's merely an opinion which has no practical import at all. Of course, my contention is that I know this moral absolute is found in the Bible. So it does reveal to be a key difference
Even the first sentence is false. Not at all, it is a direct conclusion from the atheist claim ''everything just IS''
There's simply no rational reason to link a belief in absolute morality with a belief in God. You haven't really thought this out, did you ? An absolute morality cannot exist if only matter and energy exists, therefore if an absolute morality is to exist it can only be in the case where not only matter and energy exists. ie supernatural exists. (the next step that can be taken from absolute moral laws to lawmaker is trivial at this point)
The last sentence on the other hand is simply vile. Question-beggin epithet
How can you justify saying such things under your "absolute morality" ? It's a form of reductio ad absurdum; given the premises of atheism, it is a logical consequence. One arrangement of atoms is not intrinsically more valuable then any other.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2011 3:31 AM | | PaulK has replied |
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4658 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: 05-14-2009
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With the slight difference that when I mow my lawn, the grass doesn't scream and tearfully beg me to spare its life. The chemical reactions it produces is of course different in both cases.
The only moral principle that need be assumed is that suffering is bad, something that scarcely takes a great leap of faith. All further moral principles simply follow from this; they seek to reduce suffering. But suffering, and death, is a key component of natural selection. In a world where ''everything just IS'', well 'natural selection also just IS', and I don't see how you can justify it is bad in the case of some general concept of suffering, yet claim it 'just is' in the case of natural selection (unless you are of the view that Natural selection is bad) Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 75 of 85 (608906)
03-15-2011 5:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 70 by slevesque
03-15-2011 3:21 AM
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In my worldview, absolute good and bad exists. It does not depend on my opinion of it. I can be mistaken about what it is, with the consequences this can have for myself and others. In an atheistic worldview, it does not exist. Whatever good and wrong is from your POV, it is strictly dependant on yourself, with consequences that are ultimately either good or bad only in the eye of the observer. In reality, killing thousands of people is no different then mowing the lawn. In reality, there is a difference, which is that I would rather mow the lawn. That I possess preferences, and what they are, is every bit an objective fact as the nature of God's preferences would be assuming that he existed and had any. What you mean by "absolute" is obscure. If there is any sense in which God's opinions would be "absolute", and mine are ... what? "non-absolute"? ... then you have yet to explain it. How do we tell the difference? If God and I both believed, for example, that "thou shalt not kill", how would this be an absolute opinion when he holds it but non-absolute when I hold it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by slevesque, posted 03-15-2011 3:21 AM | | slevesque has not replied |
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