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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 421 of 479 (734856)
08-02-2014 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 2:24 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Why is everyone trying to deny that it is?
Who is doing that?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 2:24 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 11:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 422 of 479 (734858)
08-02-2014 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 2:24 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The real problem is that it's both.
On the one hand, by injecting their religion into the government, Christians have succeeded in reducing their precious religion to meaningless symbols, just as they were warned would happen. Attempts to restore the Pledge of Allegiance, the National Motto, and the appearance of our currency are stymied by the court decisions that all that religious verbiage is actually not religious at all, but rather symbols that have been rendered non-religious by their repeated public use.
On the other hand, Christian yahoos (ie, the ones working to increase the imposition of their religion onto the rest society culminating, they hope and pray, in the Christian take-over of the government and of society) repeatedly point to those "meaningless non-religious public symbols" as proof that the USA used to be a Christian state.
To the first we can say, "Whatever." To the second, we say, "Hell no!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 2:24 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 423 of 479 (734868)
08-02-2014 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by NoNukes
08-02-2014 8:15 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Who is doing that?
Maybe I am stupid, but it appears that Ringo is trying to make a case that a cross no longer specifically has religious connotations. However, it is my belief that he is simply trying to play devils advocate.
Then there is the court ruling:
quote:
the record compels the conclusion that the actual purpose of displaying the cross in the September 11 Museum is a genuine secular interest
I wholeheartedly disagree that anything about a cross is secular. This part of the panel statement seems to me to indicate that the cross in this instance is some how not religious, but secular. Why is that? So they can skirt the constitution and have a government sanctioned religious symbol.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 8:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2014 2:56 AM hooah212002 has not replied
 Message 437 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 3:43 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 424 of 479 (734877)
08-03-2014 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 11:49 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
I wholeheartedly disagree that anything about a cross is secular.
Whatever you or I think about ringo's argument, I think it is easy to find counter examples for your blanket statement. As an example, we can recall that Jesus was not the first or last person to be crucified. So we ought to be able to use a cross as part of a discussion about historical application of capital punishment.
And again, just because a cross is a religious item does not mean that there cannot be secular uses of even a religious cross. An example of that would be a comparison between the employment of crosses, crucifixes, and ankhs as symbols for warding off danger. Despite the fact that fundies would object strenuously to a discussion of that type in a high school class room, such a discussion would likely pass first amendment scrutiny.
As an extreme example, if Abraham Lincoln, escaped death at the hands of JW Booth by having a bullet deflect off of a crucifix that he was wearing, there would be ample secular reason for putting the crucifix on display in a public place at public expense.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 11:49 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 425 of 479 (734883)
08-03-2014 7:02 AM


Definitely no religious significance at all. Oh no, not even a bit. Quack

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 426 of 479 (734918)
08-03-2014 4:08 PM


Just wondering, what other shape would have been rescued out of the rubble and put on a plinth? Why was that particular shape recovered and revered?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by RAZD, posted 08-03-2014 4:17 PM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 427 of 479 (734920)
08-03-2014 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by Tangle
08-03-2014 4:08 PM


Just wondering, what other shape would have been rescued out of the rubble and put on a plinth? Why was that particular shape recovered and revered?
Like a crescent?
I'd be surprised that there were no objects bent into crescent shapes ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2014 4:08 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by xongsmith, posted 08-03-2014 9:00 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 428 of 479 (734954)
08-03-2014 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by RAZD
08-03-2014 4:17 PM


RAZD writes:
I'd be surprised that there were no objects bent into crescent shapes ...
from Frako way back in Message 8:
Yea i think there should be a big cresent on the site of WTC you know that moon and the star the muslim symbol

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by RAZD, posted 08-03-2014 4:17 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 429 of 479 (734955)
08-03-2014 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by RAZD
08-03-2014 4:17 PM


I'd be surprised that there were no objects bent into crescent shapes ...
I don't think Islam adherents are as likely to revere random crescents as Christians are to recognize random crosses. But I would be surprised if there was a reasonable looking star and crescent were found in the rubble.
But let's play what if...
Imagine some steel beams bent into a perfect Star of David and found at a 9-11 dump salvage site sometime next week. I don't see any possible argument for publicly enshrining such an object. The same thing would apply for any random religious object found at the site today.
And of course I don't believe any Islamic symbols would be welcomed no matter what a bunch of Islamic rescue workers felt during 9-11. It's wrong, but that's the way it is.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by RAZD, posted 08-03-2014 4:17 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by hooah212002, posted 08-03-2014 11:58 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 430 of 479 (734973)
08-03-2014 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by NoNukes
08-02-2014 12:34 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
I don't know what atheists do on Christmas. Maybe they do still treat their kids to Santa Claus, but I suspect that they are not putting Nativity Scenes in their yards just to be cultural.
But in the US, do atheist do anything special on Easter other than take Good Friday off from work when it is offered? I suspect not. I suspect that they acknowledge such holidays they same way I honor Muslim holidays, namely by being respectful to others who do celebrate them.
Why limit your question to atheists? I am not an atheist; I am also not a Christian. I think that qualifies me to answer your question.
I am not a Christian.
I celebrate Christmas and Easter. Christmas is hugely commercialized, so there isn't much I do on this holiday that can really be said to be 'Christian', except that it is one of the only two days of the year I might find myself in a church and actually having a good time. It's an enjoyable atmosphere: folk singing, cheering, drinking cider. I've even brought my guitar and performed a couple songs myselfabout Jesus!
I am not a Christian.
Easter is an easier holiday to avoid as a non-Christian; but I celebrate it nonetheless. A big feast, perhaps some church. The Passion plays around town are always good to watch. And, of course, plenty of Easter-themed posts to participate in right here at EvC.
I am not a Christian.
But I do partake in these Christian holidays. Almost all of my morality is Christian-derived. I know many Christians. I often count myself as a 'practicing' Christian' (not a believing Christian; one whowillingly and enjoyablygoes through the motions).
I am not a Christian.
I find your assumption that only Christians celebrate Christian holidays to be absurd. In fact, I have never met someone who does not celebrate Christmas and Easter, except for folks who were explicitly of a religion that did not contain these holidays (Islam, for example). The atheists I know in person all celebrate these holidays. In fact, I can tell you that based on talks with them that they, like me, hold mostly Christian-derived morals.
All of this deep-rooted Christian culture and yet...
I am not a Christian.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2014 1:34 AM Jon has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 431 of 479 (734979)
08-03-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by NoNukes
08-03-2014 9:13 PM


Imagine some steel beams bent into a perfect Star of David and found at a 9-11 dump salvage site sometime next week.
That depends. Was the WTC made out of Stars of David? Because it was actually made out of pre-fabricated crosses.
The World Trade Center was built using prefabricated parts which were bolted or welded together at the site.[1] This process dramatically reduced construction time and costs. Using this process, t-beams and other types of cross beams were created and used in each of the World Trade Center buildings.[2] When the Twin Towers collapsed, it sent debris down on to 6 World Trade Center, and gutted the interior of World Trade Center 6. In the midst of the WTC6 debris was this intact cross beam, which its discoverer believes came from the North Tower.[3][4]
Those with access to the site used the cross as a shrine of sorts, leaving messages on it or praying before it.
Souce
I, as a secular non christian, regularly pray to secular items that don't have religious meaning. As an alcoholic, I actually do pray to the porcelain god.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2014 9:13 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2014 1:48 AM hooah212002 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 432 of 479 (734988)
08-04-2014 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by Jon
08-03-2014 11:41 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Why limit your question to atheists? I am not an atheist; I am also not a Christian.
Interesting. So when you post as CreationJon, you are just mocking Creationists?
I find your assumption that only Christians celebrate Christian holidays to be absurd.
So when I say that I don't know what atheists do, you expand that to include yourself and then accuse me of saying that only Christians celebrate Christian holidays.
As a first point, my comment would not include you since you are not an atheist. I commented only on my lack of understanding of what atheists do. I did not discuss, or example, what Muslim's or Jewish people might do.
As a second point, what I said was that I don't know what atheists do and that I suspect that atheists do not put up Nativity Scenes. That left room for people like Tangle to actually tell me what they do.
Perhaps if you take a look at what I actually said, and then re-read your response, you'll find something different to label absurd.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Jon, posted 08-03-2014 11:41 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Jon, posted 08-04-2014 12:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 433 of 479 (734989)
08-04-2014 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by hooah212002
08-03-2014 11:58 PM


That depends. Was the WTC made out of Stars of David? Because it was actually made out of pre-fabricated crosses.
I don't understand your point.
As your quote indicated, the fabrication of the WTC included steel cross beams, a couple of which form the cross in question. In what way would a piece of steel that was bent into another religious shape during the same collapse present a significantly different issue? If anything, the fact that the t-shape is also a common structural feature would point away from the cross not having any secular purpose. Afterall, the cross was always a part of the WTC in some sense.
I think the primary issue is that nobody genuflected and left messages or prayed etc. in front of other pieces of steel during the aftermath.
I, as a secular non christian, regularly pray to secular items that don't have religious meaning.
Again, nobody is arguing that. That isn't even ringo's argument according to the response to me. What some people are saying is that the cross, in addition to being religious commemorates historical events tightly associated with 9-11.
What other people are rightly noting is that the historical event is just yet another expression of religion.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by hooah212002, posted 08-03-2014 11:58 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 434 of 479 (735005)
08-04-2014 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by NoNukes
08-04-2014 1:34 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
I commented only on my lack of understanding of what atheists do.
So then I guess that would make my response largely redundant: your question was only about atheists; you were already well aware that many non-atheist non-Christians celebrated Christian holidays. Is that a fair understanding?
As a second point, what I said was that I don't know what atheists do and that I suspect that atheists do not put up Nativity Scenes. That left room for people like Tangle to actually tell me what they do.
Speaking to my own credit, I did make mention that the atheists I know in person also celebrate Christian holidays.
I did not discuss, or example, what Muslim's or Jewish people might do.
There is certainly no reason to leave these folks out. All the Muslims I've met, for example, do not celebrate Thanksgiving, believing it to be a specifically Christian holiday. The Jews I've met, on the other hand, celebrate Christmas.
Interesting. So when you post as CreationJon, you are just mocking Creationists?
I'm not sure what relationship Creationism has with all of this. We are talking about Christianity and atheism.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2014 1:34 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2014 1:14 PM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 435 of 479 (735011)
08-04-2014 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by Jon
08-04-2014 12:15 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
o then I guess that would make my response largely redundant: your question was only about atheists; you were already well aware that many non-atheist non-Christians celebrated Christian holidays. Is that a fair understanding?
It is fair enough. I was really interested in atheists, and in particular atheists that are particularly put off by public displays of Christianity like hooah200212. I was not interested in anyone else.
NoNukes writes:
I did not discuss, or example, what Muslim's or Jewish people might do.
Jon writes:
There is certainly no reason to leave these folks out.
Really? How about because they were not relevant to my question? Practicing Jews have their own holidays around about those times of year. In any event, I know a lot more about what they do than I do about what atheists do.
I have no problem with you introducing the issue of what non-atheists, non-Christians do. It is relevant overall, and it ties into the topic. I just don't expect to be pilloried for expressing ignorance unless I've pretended that my ignorance is knowledge.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Jon, posted 08-04-2014 12:15 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 3:14 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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