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Author Topic:   Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 993 (798334)
02-01-2017 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Asgara
02-01-2017 7:24 PM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
Sometimes they are the "people of the book," other times they are infidels deserving only of death.
abe; search on "Christian" in that document I just quoted for Theodoric to see how this works. /abe
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Asgara, posted 02-01-2017 7:24 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 182 of 993 (798336)
02-01-2017 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
02-01-2017 7:32 PM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
Now you should learn some arabic to know what it actually says.
Just Ask Islam - Does Islam Say: "Kill The Infidels"?
As for your source.
A fault with this website is that they tend to focus a lot on passages from the Quran to justify why they think that the Islamic ideology is inherently suboptimal. This type of argument only works for people who believe that their book represents their entire religion. While these people exist, (and are not really uncommon), this does not say much about Islamic ideology, but rather fundamentalist Islamic ideology, which is something different. Given the inherent contradictions present in many religious texts, interpreting the book rigorously is necessarily a subjective exercise.
How objective is the Religion of Peace website? - Quora

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 02-01-2017 7:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 02-01-2017 7:46 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 993 (798338)
02-01-2017 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Theodoric
02-01-2017 7:42 PM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
Some day your convoluted lies and rationalizations are going to take a huge chunk out of your butt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Theodoric, posted 02-01-2017 7:42 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Asgara, posted 02-01-2017 7:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(4)
Message 184 of 993 (798342)
02-01-2017 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
02-01-2017 7:46 PM


Kill Infidels
Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Deuteronomy 13:
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 02-01-2017 7:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 02-01-2017 7:59 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 993 (798344)
02-01-2017 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Asgara
02-01-2017 7:55 PM


Re: Kill Infidels
It is the sins of Israelites that are being addressed in Deuteronomy, and the punishment for them prescribed. These are not "infidels," which to Islam is anybody who is not a Muslim, but people of the covenant with Jehovah, people within the camp, Jews who share the covenant and promised to obey the commands of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Asgara, posted 02-01-2017 7:55 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 186 of 993 (798345)
02-01-2017 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Faith
02-01-2017 7:18 PM


I have the impression you are just straining to find some way to call me a hypocrite and I don't feel like playing the game.
I'm just asking you to explain why it was despotic tryanny when Obama did something you dislike, but within the powers of Presidency when Trump does you like. You raised the powers invested in the Presidency as part of your defence, I'm just asking for more insight into your thinking here. It certainly seems hypocritical, but I'm trying to discuss this in good faith and give you the opportunity to explain the tension between the different attitudes expressed about Presidential powers.
From what I can tell from a brief reading you seem to be equating an action by Obama to bring in aliens with Trump's action to keep them out.
Not equating the actions, I'm equating the power of the office, and wondering why I never heard the right wing cite the section of the Constitution and argue Obama has broad powers so his actions can be justified thusly.
I have no idea what the legal situation is with Obama's but the law I quoted does not apply to it.
Do you know why? That's what I've been asking about for some time. Were Obama's powers as president not also broad?
What I said was that I understood him to have ordered something SIMILAR to Trump's about keeping aliens out, not what you are saying
I was responding to your OP, not some entirely different tu quoque argument. I was talking about the right wing who protested Obama's 2014 EO and other EOs and the lack of people on the right defending his actions on the ground he had broad powers.
What I said was that I understood him to have ordered something SIMILAR to Trump's about keeping aliens out, not what you are saying, and that nobody protested THAT action at the time, so why are they protesting a similar action by Trump?
I'll happily discuss this, but not until you address my question about the point you raised first. Why should I answer your questions when you won't even read my posts, let alone provide a response to the one point you have actually acknowledged?
The people you show protesting are protesting his irresponsible actions in bringing IN aliens, another situation entirely.
But the President has broad powers, right? So the calls about him being a tyrant, about his actions were against the constitution or were even illegal, treasonous and all that....it seems odd the right went down that path then, but are now defending the President's office because the broadness of its power. Explain this to me, such that it absolves the right wing of any perception of hypocrisy.
Is there some political theory that means the President has broad powers but also at the same time limits the Presidents powers such that Trump passes muster where Obama did not?
You yourself argued that if half the country strongly disagrees, that a President using EO is despotic, or at least appears so. Why is Trump not being apparently despotic? Is it merely you are in the half of the country that agrees rather than being on the side that disagrees? Or is there some framework you are operating in that I don't see? Can you explain it for me?
I'm trying to have a civil, sober discussion with someone with whom I have disagreements with. If you don't want one, just let me know. I can give you hysterical off topic rambling if that makes things easier for you, but I suppose you think others already have that angle covered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 02-01-2017 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Theodoric, posted 02-01-2017 8:32 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 02-02-2017 7:56 AM Modulous has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 187 of 993 (798347)
02-01-2017 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
02-01-2017 7:32 PM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
You do realize that a lot of these are not even from the Quran.
Do you have any idea of what Abu Dawud, Sahih Islam, Sahih Bukhari, Tabari even are?
You said you had 109 verses about killing infidels. The vast majority of these don't mention killing. So you have 109 verses that mention some form of fighting? Nope not even all of them mention fighting. Most are out of context. They are different than the violence in the your bible only because the bible is laid out and presented differently than the Quran. You mentioned earlier that the Quran is a direct exhortation to violence rather than a documentation of violence like your bible, That is not accurate in reference to the other books mentioned here besides the Quran. The others are histories and commentaries.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 02-01-2017 7:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 188 of 993 (798348)
02-01-2017 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Modulous
02-01-2017 8:02 PM


The whole thing boils down to IOKIYAR.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2017 8:02 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 189 of 993 (798371)
02-02-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
02-01-2017 6:47 PM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
Really ? My reading is that it's at the very least carte blanche to kill non-Christians - and as much as a requirement to do so - after all, why include the story in the Bible otherwise ? There must be purpose to doing so. It's to encourage the reader to kill non-believers.
And if your interpretation is different, why should I believe you ? You told us earlier that we shouldn't believe Muslims about their own faith, so I see no reason to believe Christians about theirs. After all, it's not as if we don't have scads of evidence for Christians torturing and murdering non-believers through the ages.
(I never tried demonising a faith before - amazing how easy it is).

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 02-01-2017 6:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 02-02-2017 7:37 AM vimesey has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 190 of 993 (798372)
02-02-2017 4:01 AM


Seems relevant...
This statement was made by a judge who decided in favour of an immigrant in August last year:
...the problem remains that courts are not fulfilling their duty to interpret the law and declare invalid agency actions inconsistent with those interpretations in the cases and controversies that come before them. A duty expressly assigned to them by the APA and one often likely compelled by the Constitution itself. That’s a problem for the judiciary. And it is a problem for the people whose liberties may now be impaired not by an independent decisionmaker seeking to declare the law’s meaning as fairly as possiblethe decisionmaker promised to them by lawbut by an avowedly politicized administrative agent seeking to pursue whatever policy whim may rule the day.
Will Faith declare this judge a "wacko liberal" ?

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 191 of 993 (798381)
02-02-2017 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by vimesey
02-02-2017 1:50 AM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
Really ? My reading is that it's at the very least carte blanche to kill non-Christians - and as much as a requirement to do so - after all, why include the story in the Bible otherwise ? There must be purpose to doing so. It's to encourage the reader to kill non-believers.
It's to teach us what sin is and what punishment God himself prescribes for it and will mete for it at the end of time if people do not repent. It is not a command to anyone. Which you could tell if you just read it honestly.
Besides, it's Ezekiel. He's not talking about unbelievers. He's talking about Jews who have violated the temple. I'll go back and read it again to be sure but Ezekiel isn't one of the prophets of God's word to the heathen nations. And in those cases it is always specifically about a specific people for specific sins, never the sort of willy-nilly punishment of just anyone as you are trying to pin on it, which is however what Islam prescribes, as I showed in the quote I posted to Theodoric. God is also reported in the Bible to have sent a prophet to Nineveh, a heathen nation, to warn them of coming judgment and they repented.
Why do you want to believe the Bible is evil or equal to Islam? The evidence is against you. Why are you and other Leftists so deltermined to believe a lie?
your interpretation is different, why should I believe you ?
I didn't give you an interpretation. All you have to do is read the passage to know it's about a historical event and is not addressed to the reader.
You told us earlier that we shouldn't believe Muslims about their own faith, so I see no reason to believe Christians about theirs.
I didn't ask you to believe me. I asked you to notice what the text obviously actually says. It is NOT ADDRESSING THE READER, but Islam's texts do or are at least open-ended because they are not couched in a historical framework as the Bible's are.
After all, it's not as if we don't have scads of evidence for Christians torturing and murdering non-believers through the ages.
The Inquisition CLEARLY VIOLATES THE BIBLE, and in fact it was mostly aimed against Christians who BELIEVED the Bible because Catholicism refused to let people read it during those centuries. The whole thrust of the Inquisition was anti-Christian. it tortured and murdered predominantly dissenting Christians who recognized the papacy as the Antichrist. It has continued to do so where it can't be easily discovered too, such as in Latin America. Learn some history.
(I never tried demonising a faith before - amazing how easy it is).
Sure, if you play stu/pid and refuse to read what is actually written.
I've argued only from the Bible itself AND the Koran and other writings of Islam too. I didn't ask you to interpret what believers think, but what the documents say. The case has been made but you don't want to see that the religions are complete opposites and that refusal is all you are doing.
Perhaps I should find the official Islamic teaching that lying is acceptable for Muslims? No, like all other leftists you can deny anything you want to deny, you don't have to be honest about it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by vimesey, posted 02-02-2017 1:50 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by vimesey, posted 02-02-2017 7:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 192 of 993 (798382)
02-02-2017 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
02-02-2017 7:37 AM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
Perhaps I should find the official Islamic teaching that lying is acceptable for Muslims?
Please do. I have looked. My views are based on my reading of the source material (or more accurately, on translations of it).

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 02-02-2017 7:37 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2017 7:45 AM vimesey has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 193 of 993 (798383)
02-02-2017 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by vimesey
02-02-2017 7:41 AM


Re: Pictures worth a thousand words
We've covered this before. Faith is being stu/paid and refusing to read what is written

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by vimesey, posted 02-02-2017 7:41 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 993 (798384)
02-02-2017 7:47 AM


ARE THERE ANY HONEST PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM WHO CAN UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH OF WHAT I'M SAYING?

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2017 7:51 AM Faith has replied
 Message 202 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2017 8:30 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 195 of 993 (798385)
02-02-2017 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
02-02-2017 7:47 AM


There are plenty of honest people here who can see the untruths you are saying.
If you don't like that, then it is sad, but it is your problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 02-02-2017 7:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 02-02-2017 7:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
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