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Author Topic:   PC Gone Too Far
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 61 of 734 (783511)
05-05-2016 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Percy
05-05-2016 5:31 PM


Well, yes, you're very sincere and very serious, efforts at getting you to lighten up notwithstanding.
Do you recall your reaction the last time I suggested that you lighten up?
I'm offended that people want to destroy history, but so what.
Moving a monument does not destroy history. That's just inflamatory rhetoric.
I took a peak at the wikipedia article on the Kentucky Memorial today. It appears to me that this particular monument is one of the least offense pieces I've seen discussed in this way. There is in fact a surrounding park that tells a more complete story than does the monument itself. On the other hand, tt also appears that in the past there have been attempts to move the monument for reasons having nothing to do with offense and that all of those attempts were stopped for one reason.
Why the wishes of those who want to keep the monument in place no matter who it inconveniences or insults are to be considered pure and those of the folks who want the monument moved are to be subjected to ridicule is not clear. But "destroying history" does not match the motives of those who want the statute moved. Nothing of the sort is going on.
How about if they put the thing in your yard and let you take care of it?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 05-05-2016 5:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 05-05-2016 8:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 62 of 734 (783517)
05-05-2016 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
05-05-2016 8:07 PM


NoNukes writes:
Well, yes, you're very sincere and very serious, efforts at getting you to lighten up notwithstanding.
Do you recall your reaction the last time I suggested that you lighten up?
Sometimes you seem just bound and determined to pick a fight. Well, I'll not oblige you, just correct the record. There was a smiley on what I said - I was hoping you might discontinue your harsh pattern if I attempted some lighthearted comments on irrelevant things like syntax and quote characters. There was no smiley on your accusation that I was elitist. And even if I hadn't included a smiley, are you seriously equating accusations of elitism with comments about syntax and quotation marks?
Moving a monument does not destroy history. That's just inflammatory rhetoric.
I thought you were speaking generally about people claiming to be offended, so I was speaking generally, too. But in any case I did have some concerns about that particular monument. The original announcement said that no new location had been chosen for the monument - the original plan was to place it in storage.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2016 8:07 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2016 9:47 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 63 of 734 (783519)
05-05-2016 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
05-05-2016 8:33 PM


I was hoping you might discontinue your harsh pattern if I attempted some lighthearted comments on irrelevant things like syntax and quote characters
I certainly understood that Percy.
What I don't understand is the need to impugn the character of people you disagree with. Surely you understand that labeling your opponents position PC does not promote polite discourse. Under those circumstances I'm not sure that a smile particular with an accusation of trolling thrown is some kind of gesture of civility.
And I didn't call you an elitist. I indicated that your post conveyed elitism. I had hoped that it was not your intention to convey such a sentiment when I brought it to your attention.
And no, I'm not equating accusations of elitism with comments about syntax. I am comparing them instead to accusations of trolling and being PC.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 05-05-2016 8:33 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 05-06-2016 7:57 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 64 of 734 (783541)
05-06-2016 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by NoNukes
05-05-2016 9:47 PM


NoNukes writes:
What I don't understand is the need to impugn the character of people you disagree with.
I haven't done that, but you're not a moderator. Problems and issues with discussion should be taken to the Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0 thread. Phat's active.
Here in this thread let's keep the discussion focused on the topic. In the opening post I stated my belief that the original decision to move the monument was driven by the politics of claiming offense, a key strategy of PC. Most of the subsequent discussion from my side has been about the importance of preserving history and of not judging people of other times and cultures, neither of which are related to PC.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2016 9:47 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 65 of 734 (783548)
05-06-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Percy
05-05-2016 5:09 PM


Percy writes:
People everywhere are the same mix of types.
Which is why we should be careful about generalizing. The claim that all war dead are worthy of respect is clearly out the window. So why preserve monuments to general war dead? A monument to those who died defending the Third Reich does implicitly include the SS. Defense of the Confederacy does imply defense of slavery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 05-05-2016 5:09 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 05-06-2016 11:52 AM ringo has replied
 Message 68 by Percy, posted 05-06-2016 12:25 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 734 (783549)
05-06-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ringo
05-06-2016 11:50 AM


Expectations
Should we have an expectation that things we disapprove of are not memorialized or honored?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 05-06-2016 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 05-06-2016 12:03 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 67 of 734 (783553)
05-06-2016 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
05-06-2016 11:52 AM


Re: Expectations
jar writes:
Should we have an expectation that things we disapprove of are not memorialized or honored?
No.
Nor should people who put up memorials expect them to be sacrosanct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 05-06-2016 11:52 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 68 of 734 (783555)
05-06-2016 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ringo
05-06-2016 11:50 AM


ringo writes:
Which is why we should be careful about generalizing. The claim that all war dead are worthy of respect is clearly out the window.
As is the opposite claim that no war dead are worthy of respect.
So why preserve monuments to general war dead? A monument to those who died defending the Third Reich does implicitly include the SS. Defense of the Confederacy does imply defense of slavery.
If I understand you properly, then to continue your line of argument, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial implies defense of My Lai. This seems more an argument against all army war memorials, which is a more consistent position than arguing that some armies are deserving of memorials and some aren't.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 05-06-2016 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 05-06-2016 12:37 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 734 (783556)
05-06-2016 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Percy
05-06-2016 12:25 PM


Percy writes:
If I understand you properly, then to continue your line of argument, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial implies defense of My Lai.
I have mixed feelings about the Vietnam War. I'm the same age as Vietnam veterans so I can identify with them but at a visceral level I have more respect for the war resisters than the warriors. I definitely DO NOT think a memorial to those warriors is appropriate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Percy, posted 05-06-2016 12:25 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
14174dm
Member (Idle past 1109 days)
Posts: 161
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015


Message 70 of 734 (783565)
05-06-2016 3:02 PM


Tone of the memorial
I can't think of an example of a physical memorial but I keep thinking of songs that don't glorify war or the cause or whatever. I am thinking of songs and memorials that speak to the loss and the waste of war.
For me, memorials should also speak to later generations of what a war does to the people involved and how long they really last. The Civil War lasted four years and cost at least 750,000 lives. Wikipedia quotes one source as
By one estimate, the war claimed the lives of 10 percent of all Northern males 20—45 years old, and 30 percent of all Southern white males aged 18—40
from Irish Song Lyrics - Willie McBride a.k.a. Green Fields of France (mis spelling & all)
Willie McBride a.k.a. Green Fields of France
CHORUS
Did they beat the drum slowly did they play the fife lowly,
did they sound the death march as they lowered you down
did the band play the last post and chorus,
did the pipes play the "Flowers of the Forest"
Well how do you do young Willie McBride?
do you mind if I sit down here by your graveside
and rest for a while 'neath the warm summer sun
I've been walkin' all day and I'm nearly done
I see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
when you joined the great fallen of 1916
Well I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Willie McBride was it slow and obscene CHORUS
And the beautiful wife or the sweetheart for life
in some faithful heart are you forever enshrined
and although you died back in 1916
in that faithful heart are you forever nineteen?
or are you a stranger without even a name
enshrined forever behind a glass pane
in an ould photograph torn tattered and stained,
fading to yellow in a brown leather frame? CHORUS
Now the sun shines down on the green fields of France
a warm summer wind makes the red poppys dance
The trences have vanished under the plows,
there's no gas no barbed wire, there's no guns firing now
but here in this graveyard it's still No Man's land,
the countless white crosses stand mute in the sand
for man's blind indifference to his fellow man,
to a whole generation that was butchered and damned CHORUS
Now Willie McBride I can't help wonder why
Do those who lie here do they know why they died
Did they really beleive when they answered the call
did they really believe that this war would end wars
Forever this song of suffereing and shame
the killing the dying was all done in vain
for young Willie McBride it's all happened again,
and again, and again, and again and again
Edited by 14174dm, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 05-06-2016 4:06 PM 14174dm has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 71 of 734 (783568)
05-06-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by 14174dm
05-06-2016 3:02 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
14174dm writes:
For me, memorials should also speak to later generations of what a war does to the people involved and how long they really last.
To quote it again:
quote:
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana
We could wish that war memorials were clear statements of the horrors and futility of war, and I think the Vietnam Veterans Memorial shows we're making progress in that direction, but we can't demand that the past reflect the progress of today. In addition to being a reminder of history, when a memorial has stood for 120 years like the one that began this topic then it has itself become a part of history.
I don't know if many know that another Vietnam memorial lies just a short distance away from The Wall. Once the design for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was selected traditionalists began lobbying for another memorial that was a bit more traditional:
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by 14174dm, posted 05-06-2016 3:02 PM 14174dm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 05-23-2016 12:15 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 72 of 734 (784795)
05-23-2016 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
05-06-2016 4:06 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
We could wish that war memorials were clear statements of the horrors and futility of war, and I think the Vietnam Veterans Memorial shows we're making progress in that direction, but we can't demand that the past reflect the progress of today.
We can insist that the present reflect our current values. That's exactly what we do when we ask that such statyes memorials be moved to a museum, or when we rename a school attended predominately by black children away from a celebration of a man who oversaw the massacre of black POWs during the civil war and who was the grand wizard of the KKK.
And we can do a better job of making sure that memorials are reminders and not celebrations. We should insist on doing that if the point of a memorial is that the past be avoided.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 05-06-2016 4:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 05-23-2016 1:28 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 73 of 734 (784797)
05-23-2016 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by NoNukes
05-23-2016 12:15 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NoNukes writes:
We can insist that the present reflect our current values. That's exactly what we do when we ask that such memorials be moved to a museum,...
By sanitizing our present of the evidence of our past don't we risk forgetting its lessons? This has very much a PC feel to it.
...or when we rename a school attended predominately by black children away from a celebration of a man who oversaw the massacre of black POWs during the civil war and who was the grand wizard of the KKK.
Looking this up, renaming Nathan B. Forrest High School, a name it only acquired in 1959, doesn't seem like a threat to history. Even revered personages have had their names removed from places, such as when Cape Kennedy reverted to Cape Canaveral. I think Forrest will do just fine with one less school named after him:
And we can do a better job of making sure that memorials are reminders and not celebrations.
Speaking just for myself, I don't see war memorials as celebrations. In my tours of Revolutionary and Civil War battlefields I've seen many memorials, and I can't remember coming away with anything other than a somber feeling.
But more generally, don't people have the right to experience whatever feelings well within them? If some people feel celebrative in the presence of some war memorial, is not that their right? Differences of opinion about war memorials should be expected (about anything, really), especially from the perspective of different sides of a conflict. If each generation cleanses itself of the memories it finds offensive then we'll gradually whitewash our past.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 05-23-2016 12:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by NoNukes, posted 05-23-2016 1:45 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 74 of 734 (784798)
05-23-2016 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
05-23-2016 1:28 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
By sanitizing our present of the evidence of our past don't we risk forgetting its lessons? This has very much a PC feel to it.
I'd suggest that the sanitizing occurred when the monuments were built and the names were chosen. The complete truth was never included. The ignoring of the heinous acts that those folks were involved would seem to be past political correctness. Telling the truth that some of these folks do not deserve to be celebrated, if that is our current judgment, is either not PC or is an example of why the term PC is no real indictment.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 05-23-2016 1:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Percy, posted 05-23-2016 2:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 75 of 734 (784800)
05-23-2016 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by NoNukes
05-23-2016 1:45 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NoNukes writes:
I'd suggest that the sanitizing occurred when the monuments were built and the names were chosen. The complete truth was never included. The ignoring of the heinous acts that those folks were involved would seem to be past political correctness.
And we don't do that anymore? Are our judgments today are so clean and so pure and so accurate that we can safely erase the record of history knowing that expressions from the past have no value to us or future generations?
Telling the truth that some of these folks do not deserve to be celebrated, if that is our current judgment, is either not PC or is an example of why the term PC is no real indictment.
Telling the truth (as we see it) and erasing the past are two different things. And if the motivation for erasing the past is offended feelings then that is the epitome of PC.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by NoNukes, posted 05-23-2016 1:45 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 05-23-2016 2:56 PM Percy has replied
 Message 77 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2016 3:05 PM Percy has replied

  
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