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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 283 (816991)
08-14-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
08-14-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jesus was obviously just another man, his death did not end this wordly suffering that your mythology predicted.
Nor will your death or my death. Perhaps the worldly suffering was foreknown to spur many of us--those with a developed conscience, to get angry enough to do something about it. No God is needed. And even if One did exist, what good will it do you to waste time and energy complaining to Him? You may well think of Him (if He did exist) as a bastard, but your anger and protest can be used as the catalyst for you to try and correct the mistakes as you perceive them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 4:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 283 (816995)
08-14-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
08-14-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Majority Christianity has always taught that the Creation was severely damaged by the Fall, so why is this discussion going on as if what we have now is God's original Creation? Shouldn't you address what is actually Christian doctrine? Jesus had to come because of the Fall, His death redeems not only those who believe in Him but the whole Creation itself, which has suffered as a result all this time. That's standard Christian doctrine. The lion WILL lie down with the lamb in the redeemed Creation. It will be restored to its original beauty and peace at that time. That is standard Christian doctrine.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 4:47 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 123 of 283 (817006)
08-14-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by New Cat's Eye
08-14-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
Gosh, it's almost like we're people.
Yup, people making stuff up.
Without competition there is no growth. Complete stasis sounds worse to me.
You're just lacking in imagination - you can only think of this model. I ask again, is this the best a god can do?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2017 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 9:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 124 of 283 (817007)
08-14-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
08-14-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
It can not be evil by the same method used to call it evil; by human judgement but that does require one to think beyond simple binary choices.
I can't extract any meaning from this sentence. It's probably me; care to try again?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 10:55 AM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 125 of 283 (817008)
08-14-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
08-14-2017 1:22 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Faith writes:
Majority Christianity has always taught that the Creation was severely damaged by the Fall, so why is this discussion going on as if what we have now is God's original Creation? Shouldn't you address what is actually Christian doctrine? Jesus had to come because of the Fall, His death redeems not only those who believe in Him but the whole Creation itself, which has suffered as a result all this time. That's standard Christian doctrine. The lion WILL lie down with the lamb in the redeemed Creation. It will be restored to its original beauty and peace at that time. That is standard Christian doctrine.
Oh Faith, that's so batshit crazy that virtually no modern Christian believes that nonsense any more. But this is the point - you all make such random stuff up that it's impossible to discuss it except one by one.
You'd think that would be enough to tell you it's all made up, but apparently not, us humans can and do believe anything and everything.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 1:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 6:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 126 of 283 (817009)
08-14-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-14-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Phat writes:
Nor will your death or my death. Perhaps the worldly suffering was foreknown to spur many of us--those with a developed conscience, to get angry enough to do something about it.
What, pray, can we do about the death, pain and disease of the trillions of organism that suffered before god got around to evolving H. Sapens. And what can we do now? That's bonkers....
No God is needed. And even if One did exist, what good will it do you to waste time and energy complaining to Him? You may well think of Him (if He did exist) as a bastard, but your anger and protest can be used as the catalyst for you to try and correct the mistakes as you perceive them.
'You cannot be serious'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 12:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 283 (817012)
08-14-2017 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Tangle
08-14-2017 4:47 PM


nope it's the mainstream view
Faith writes:
Majority Christianity has always taught that the Creation was severely damaged by the Fall, so why is this discussion going on as if what we have now is God's original Creation? Shouldn't you address what is actually Christian doctrine? Jesus had to come because of the Fall, His death redeems not only those who believe in Him but the whole Creation itself, which has suffered as a result all this time. That's standard Christian doctrine. The lion WILL lie down with the lamb in the redeemed Creation. It will be restored to its original beauty and peace at that time. That is standard Christian doctrine.
Oh Faith, that's so batshit crazy that virtually no modern Christian believes that nonsense any more.
As I said, it's the majority view and always has been. Where are you getting your information?
Here's one scripture passage that says what I'm saying:
Romans 8:18 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
But this is the point - you all make such random stuff up that it's impossible to discuss it except one by one.
I agree that at EvC there is such a cacophony of different views presented as "Christian" the poor unbeliever has little chance of sorting it all out. I despair of getting anything true across when I'm up against so many "Christians" who don't know what they are talking about or have accepted some compromised view. I have come by my views from years and years reading books and books and listening to sermon after sermon by a whole range of Christian teachrs, but predominantly mainstream Protestant teachers and when I say my views are the majority view I know that's true. I've done a fair amount of quoting scripture and relevant writings but still I understand an unbeliever has no particular reason to believe what I say over others. At EvC we get all the oddball points of view. And unbelievers tend to like the naturalistic ones best so making a case for the true supernatural historical panorama presented in the Bible isn't easy.
You'd think that would be enough to tell you it's all made up, but apparently not, us humans can and do believe anything and everything.
I base my views on the Bible and the best exegetes of the Bible, I don't make any of it up.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 4:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 2:54 AM Faith has replied
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 12:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 128 of 283 (817029)
08-15-2017 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
08-14-2017 6:27 PM


Re: nope it's the mainstream view
Faith writes:
As I said, it's the majority view and always has been. Where are you getting your information?
What proportion of Christians do you imagine believe in the literal truth of the creation story?
Even when I was being taught it as a child, we were told it was a story not a literal truth. Even in the US - which is a exceptionally primitive about religion compared to the rest of modern democracies - only 16% now think the bible is literally true
quote:
How many people are truly hardcore creationists? For that, you have to look at certainty across a range of statements. Hill’s data show a high correlation in responses to four propositions: that God created the world in six 24-hour days, that God created humans miraculously, that humans didn’t evolve from other life forms, and that Adam and Eve were real people. Sixteen percent of respondents said they were absolutely or very certain about all four of those beliefs. That’s the hardcore. And even that core isn’t as hard as advertised. Ask whether humans have been around for only 10,000 years, and the hardcorethose who are absolutely or very certain on all five questionsshrinks to 7 percent.
Creationism poll: How many Americans believe the Bible is literal, inerrant, or symbolic.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 3:01 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 283 (817030)
08-15-2017 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Tangle
08-15-2017 2:54 AM


Re: nope it's the mainstream view
What proportion of Christians do you imagine believe in the literal truth of the creation story?
Even when I was being taught it as a child, we wer told it was a story not a literal truth.
"Liberal" churches would teach that. What was your denomination?
I don't know how many liberal versus Bible-inerrancy churches or Christians there are these days so it's hard to guess, but the Bible believing churches all teach a literal view of the Creation. In my town there are about twenty Christian churches, I've visited maybe two thirds of them over the years, picking the ones I expected to be conservative. I'd say those two thirds teach a literal Creation. It's a guess since I wasn't there for that teaching.
ABE: It's possible that members of those churches have differing views, however, because of confusion between what they get from school or general knowledge and what the churches actually teach.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 2:54 AM Tangle has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 283 (817037)
08-15-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tangle
08-14-2017 4:30 PM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
Gosh, it's almost like we're people.
Yup, people making stuff up.
Yeah, that is how people come to conclusions. Often they differ. \_(ツ)_/
You're just lacking in imagination - you can only think of this model.
Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you:
quote:
Competition is cruel, period. It's hard to imagine a more cruel way of setting up a system of life.
quote:
You're telling me that setting up a system where everything fights for its life at the expense of all other life such that every living organism suffers and ultimately dies - and this goes on for millions of years - is not evil? What could be worse?
I think stasis is worse than competition.
I ask again, is this the best a god can do?
I don't know.
Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 4:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 9:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 131 of 283 (817038)
08-15-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 9:46 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
Yeah, that is how people come to conclusions. Often they differ.
Making stuff up is not the same as forming different conclusions. You're all supposed to be the same religion...
I think stasis is worse than competition.
And I think that's both a false choice and an unfounded assumption.
I ask again, is this the best a god can do? I don't know.
You're omnigod had only one choice? I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive enviroment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 9:46 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 10:53 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 11:59 AM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 283 (817046)
08-15-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
08-15-2017 9:53 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Making stuff up is not the same as forming different conclusions.
Duh. But conclusions are made up.
You're all supposed to be the same religion...
We're also people. People aren't droids and they have these things called opinions. They also think about stuff.
Religion isn't something that is done to you, it is something that you paricipate in. It's no wonder peoples' opinions on the matter differ. Especially given we're talking about something that lacks empirical evidence.
And I think that's both a false choice and an unfounded assumption.
How does a thing grow without taking from something else?
You're omnigod had only one choice?
I doubt it.
For what it's worth: I don't have much use for the omni-stuff.
I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive enviroment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable.
You are welcome to that opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 9:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 11:15 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 133 of 283 (817059)
08-15-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Why do you care?
New Cat's Eye writes:
How does a thing grow without taking from something else?
1 - Create a universe where matter can be created and/or destroyed.
2 - "Taking from something else" isn't even really the issue. The issue is more "taking from something else that is intelligently alive."
Therefore: Create a universe where all things grow from the power of the sun, not by eating other living things. Or, perhaps, by eating creatures without brains (like plants) instead of eating other intelligence that is alive.
There are an infinite number of ways to change (that is - not be stagnant) without requiring what we call "evil."
You can eliminate evil and make the world better.
-but this gets into the issue of where evil/not-evil actually exists along the gradient
Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better.
Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is.
If God is not all-powerful... then that's exactly the reason why the world is the way it is... it is this way because not even God can make it differently. Such an explanation is very acceptable. The issue only arises if someone is claiming that God is, actually, all-powerful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 11:52 AM Stile has replied
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 12:02 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 12:19 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 283 (817069)
08-15-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Stile
08-15-2017 11:15 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Stile writes:
You can eliminate evil and make the world better.
-but this gets into the issue of where evil/not-evil actually exists along the gradient
Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better.
Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is.
A few thoughts.
  • What if death is...as Forrest Gump suggests...just another part of life? What if getting eaten by another creature is a natural cause and that evil has nothing to do with it? The only complaint I would raise is in regards to human cannibalism since we are not carnivores by design.
  • What if God sees a bigger picture than we as humans can fathom? What if the results of Creation must go through certain primitive steps with an ultimate goal of making us more empathetic, resolved against evil, or even angry at God (or some force) for our ultimate benefit in our growth and awareness? In other words what I'm trying to say is "what if God is right in that everything is meant to play out largely as it has done"?
    After all it seems to me to be a bit of hubris that humans with limited perception and information can arrogantly judge a Creator. But then again...as jar may suggest...we are charged to do just that. In this way, God helps us grow through judging and opposing Him.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 11:15 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 153 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 1:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 135 of 283 (817071)
    08-15-2017 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
    08-15-2017 9:53 AM


    Re: Why do you care?
    Tangle writes:
    You're omnigod had only one choice? I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive environment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable.
    Think about it this way. Muscles grow by being challenged over and above their limits. Tissue breaks down and is rebuilt at a stronger level. So what if God foreknew that the whole messy affair had to be brutal and ugly in order for the human character to have a chance at developing empathy, survival, and awareness of how to fight and grow?
    IF God had simply designed the environment as comfortable to us, we would simply be a bunch of couch potatoes with no character.
    You see death as tragic, which is a human characteristic. God may see death as simply leftover clay smashed back into the mound next to the wheel.
    And again as I said earlier...we may judge Him as being incompetent, petty, evil, or uncaring. We may even dismiss Him altogether. In the meantime, however, our inner character is evolving so as to guide our own destiny without Him. And if He exists this may have been His plan from the beginning anyway.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 9:53 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 147 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 1:06 PM Phat has not replied

      
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