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Author Topic:   Republican Healthcare Plan
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 31 of 187 (794491)
11-16-2016 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 12:29 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
On the other hand, people are going to have to start taking responsibility for themselves rather than relying on big brother to take care of them.
I don't have much to add to this in terms of detail, and I know there's a debate to be had on the details. But as someone who lives in a country, where there's a healthcare service that's free at the point of delivery (barring some minor charges for prescriptions etc, and paying for cosmetic stuff), I'm not sure I recognise the big brother reference.
We took a decision to provide automatic healthcare for all, and get everyone to pay some tax to fund it. That's not really symptomatic of a nightmarish, Orwellian dystopia. It's pretty cool really. And we're not even slightly commie 😉

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 12:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:25 PM vimesey has replied
 Message 40 by JonF, posted 11-16-2016 4:00 PM vimesey has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 187 (794492)
11-16-2016 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by JonF
11-16-2016 1:34 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Likely there would be a "race to the bottom" as with credit cards. Insurers will find the state with the most flexible and limited regulation and move there.
I read it as other states having an option, rather than a requirement, to accept out of state insurance.
quote:
Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines. As long as the plan purchased complies with state requirements, any vendor ought to be able to offer insurance in any state. By allowing full competition in this market, insurance costs will go down and consumer satisfaction will go up.
As long as State X's plan complies with State Y's requirements, then don't inhibit the sale of State X's plan into State Y.
That wouldn't cause a race to the bottom.
Yes, and since health care isn't amenable to a free-market solution,
I'm not convinced of that.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 187 (794493)
11-16-2016 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
11-16-2016 1:59 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
You are satisfied with...
Stop it. I'll do me. You do you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 11-16-2016 1:59 PM NoNukes has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 187 (794494)
11-16-2016 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by vimesey
11-16-2016 3:18 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
I'm not sure I recognise the big brother reference.
Rather than having the Feds run it, cut the peoples' taxes and give them the money and let them come up with their own solutions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by vimesey, posted 11-16-2016 3:18 PM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 3:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 36 by vimesey, posted 11-16-2016 3:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 46 by JonF, posted 11-16-2016 4:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2016 4:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 187 (794495)
11-16-2016 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 3:25 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Rather than having the Feds run it, cut the peoples' taxes and give them the money and let them come up with their own solutions.
Cut what taxes?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:56 PM jar has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 36 of 187 (794497)
11-16-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 3:25 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Still not a dystopia though.
I don't think that the government being in charge of running something, in and of itself, makes it undesirable. Especially when we vote the government in and out of power every so often.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:58 PM vimesey has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 37 of 187 (794498)
11-16-2016 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 1:36 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
allows companies to use the worst regulations from the worst state across the entire country,
Does it? If state X has more regulations than state Y, then does state Y really have to accept State X's stuff?
Yes. It's now legal for states to allow out-of-state insurance. Some do. The only way to change the situation Federally is to make it mandatory on all states. If there's an opt-out then a lot of states will opt-out (few want to give up their regulatory power) and the situation won't change. "Allowing sales across state lines" will be meaningless and ineffective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 1:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 187 (794499)
11-16-2016 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
11-16-2016 3:46 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Sigh, "The plan is to have the insurance premiums be deducted from your taxes and the contributions to the HSA be tax-free."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 3:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 4:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 187 (794500)
11-16-2016 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by vimesey
11-16-2016 3:50 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
I don't think that the government being in charge of running something, in and of itself, makes it undesirable.
Having the government in charge of something makes it cost more money and take longer. Plus they're notoriously incompetent and careless.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 42 by vimesey, posted 11-16-2016 4:07 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 45 by caffeine, posted 11-16-2016 4:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 56 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2016 4:46 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 40 of 187 (794501)
11-16-2016 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by vimesey
11-16-2016 3:18 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
I'm not sure I recognise the big brother reference.
It's US right wing dogma that aid to the needy harms them by encouraging them to avoid working and rip off the taxpayers. Ayn Rand stuff. The data shows otherwise, which appears to have no effect on the belief.
Healthcare would be no problem if those people would park their welfare Cadillacs, turn off their 75" TVs, and buckle down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by vimesey, posted 11-16-2016 3:18 PM vimesey has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(5)
Message 41 of 187 (794503)
11-16-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 3:58 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Having the government in charge of something makes it cost more money and take longer. Plus they're notoriously incompetent and careless.
Medicare is much more efficient than many duplicated bureaucracies in private hands. And it has purchasing leverage no private company has.
All sweeping claims are wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 4:24 PM JonF has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 42 of 187 (794504)
11-16-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 3:58 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Often, yes - and when this is the case, this is often as much a reason for improving the public service, as for privatising it.
Against that, public services benefit from being available to all, fair, and not at risk of corporate insolvency whilst being relied upon by people.
So it's a balance. As I said, in and of itself, something being provided by the government doesn't make it bad - you always need to balance the pros and cons.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:58 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 43 of 187 (794505)
11-16-2016 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Diomedes
11-16-2016 3:17 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Diomedes writes:
What 'works' is a singular system that is either partially or fully run by the government. Every 1st world country on the planet has recognized this except the USA.
There are a mixture of approaches out there. The common thread is that prices are regulated by the government. They pay less because they don't treat peoples' health as something to make a profit off of.
When you have a product that people can literally not live without (notice the proper usage of "literally" ) and you put that into a free market, what happens? Suppliers will increase prices as high as they can. That's what has happened in the US.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 187 (794506)
11-16-2016 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 3:56 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
Sorry but that is still not an answer.
Is the plan to allow deducting insurance premiums from income tax? If so that is an annual event. You do not get the money before the fact, the government gets to hold your money for a year. Second, to contribute to any HSA you must first have disposable income that can be allocated to that instead of rent or food or clothes for the kids or all of the other expenses real people face.
What if the insurance premiums are due monthly while any tax refund comes in annually?
What if there is no disposable income to set aside for an HSA?
How should the government make up for lost revenues created by additional deductions?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2016 4:31 PM jar has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(2)
Message 45 of 187 (794507)
11-16-2016 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2016 3:58 PM


Re: Try reading what Trump said it has been on his website since March
That's only half of it, though. Just because an insurance company is required to insure you doesn't mean that a healthcare provider is required to accept it. And that's exactly the problem that friends of mine who utilized Obamacare are complaining about: They have insurance now but they're having problems finding people who take it.
How on earth is that possible? No provider should be allowed to refuse valid insurance. We have a legal concept of legal tender to prevent this kind of extortion,
Having the government in charge of something makes it cost more money and take longer. Plus they're notoriously incompetent and careless.
Stop and think for a minute before spouting obviously false ideological slogans. We're discussing the US healthcare system, where everything costs a lot more than the UK's state run healthcare system. If you want to criticise the actual shortcomings of the NHS, then go ahead, but it is an uncontovertible fact that Britain's socialist healthcare is cheaper than the private system in the US. For that matter, every heathcare system in the developed world is cheaper than the US's, despite having more government involvement.
Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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