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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Off Topic Posts aka Rabbit Trail Thread - Mostly YEC Geology | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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The erosion between the horizontal layers is NOT visible with the naked eye unless very close up. See if you can spot the disconformity between the Redwall Limestone and the limestone that underlies it.
You don't exactly need a microscope, do you? How about you find out the facts first, and then try to explain them? That's what geologists did. That's why they don't agree with you.
I'm talking about the neat horizontal layers from ABOVE the Great Unconformity to the top of the canyon. So they're all horizontal apart from the ones that aren't --- and you're not talking about those? I wonder why not?
Sorry if my number of years is incorrect ... No you're not. If you were you could have spent ten seconds with Google finding out the correct number.
As for the other visible disturbances, yes they are also visible and I'm going to have to start including them with the formation of the canyon. Here's the theory: The tipping of the strata below the Great Unconformity, the unconformity itself, and the uplift all occurred at the same time as the cutting of the canyon, according to what I've been arguing here. It was all one event. Those strata could not have been in place for more than months or a year at most when that event with its separate effects occurred. But look ...
Now, real geologists can make sense of this sequence of events. First the Grand Canyon Supergroup was deposited. Then it was tilted. Then it was eroded. Then the higher formations were laid down. Then the canyon was cut. But your way ... well, how was the G.C.S. tilted while leaving the Tapeats Sandstone, the Bright Angel Shale, the Muav Limestone, and so forth on the same level on both sides of the canyon? And what happened to the north ends of the strata in the G.C.S? And what caused the unconformity? What caused any of the erosional surfaces? You said run-off from the flood, and when I asked you to explain that cryptic remark you posted this:
The Flood deposited the entire stack of sediments with their fossil contents over some hundreds, maybe even thousands of square miles, quite flat and horizontal from Arizona through Utah and even into Nevada and California, all in some unknown but relatively short period of time, weeks at a minimum, year at max. After they were all in place to a depth of at least two miles, tectonic and volcanic force from beneath caused the tilting of the lower strata and the formation of the Great Unconformity, the heat forming the schist and the volcano supplying the granite, and at the same time raising the entire stack into the uplift. That uplifting of the stack caused the upper layers to crack and remaining Flood water or perhaps the water from remaining standing lakes in the area, flooded into the cracks taking chunks of strata with it, and carved out the canyon. Massively debris-laden water. After the canyon was carved out and the water settled down to a roar forming the horseshoe bend and all that, the water between the exposed layers was continuing to run off. Probably for quite some time. ... which does not, in fact, explain it.
There's the whole picture. It's really very reasonable and geological. It is barely comprehensible, and it is certainly not geological. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It seems to be more for your personal convenience. You didn't want to admit that there were Churches which allowed people to take non-YEC views so you suddenly reversed your position and made YEC belief a defining point of Christianity. The fact that a belief was historically held within the Church is NOT sufficient to make it an unchallengeable dogma, however much you would like to say otherwise.
quote: In reality that claim is false. Even if we talk about authority then we have a genuine scientific consensus while you only have a consensus manufactured from selecting people who agree with the very view under question !
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: We can't see what rock a fossil is found in ? Looking at fossils in rock is "THEORY" ?
quote: I think you mean that to the uneducated eye relying on long-distance photographs of the Grand Canyon walls the signs of age aren't obvious. The limitations of that approach should be obvious.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yet the very term and description was first used by Karl Marx and so far you have never shown there is some Protestant ethic.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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is that the Can you truly not see, Faith, that this is precisely the sort of argument that you are using? Is it utterly impossible for you to consider that it is Faith that could be wrong about something in this discussion, instead of an apostate atheist evolutionist? You have been asking us to examine ourselves and see if we could be wrong. Why can't that request apply to you?"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Dear Faith,
My question is what do you really fear in losing the YEC position? You still get to believe in Jesus and all the good things he stands for. You still get to believe in all the really important things in your life. What is the problem with OEC? Sincerely, - xongsmith, 5.7d
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
How do you conclude that the Bible is the word of God? Doesn't it have to conform to reality in some way to be considered reliable?
Reality is that the geological record could not have accumulated in 6000 years. The Bible is wrong about that, period. You can't just say that the sky "must be" green because the Bible sez so. Looking out the window proves it isn't so. Reality is where you have to start.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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foreveryoung writes:
In the context in which it is used in Genesis 1, yes, it always means 24 hours. Hebrew scholars seem to agree on that.
Do you think the word "day" always has to mean 24 hours? foreveryoung writes:
No. In Genesis 1 it refers to the whole world of ancient Hebrew cosmology, a flat disk with a bowl-shaped firmament over it. The sun was a lamp hanging from the "ceiling" of the firmament. Do you think the phrase "the whole world" has to mean the entire planet known to us today that is the third planet from the sun? I don't think there's any reason to think "the whole world" was meant to refer to somebody's back yard.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 582 days) Posts: 921 Joined:
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In the context in which it is used in Genesis 1, yes, it always means 24 hours. Hebrew scholars seem to agree on that. So you think the writer of Genesis 1 thought all of creation was created in 6 literal 24 hour days?
ringo writes: I don't think there's any reason to think "the whole world" was meant to refer to somebody's back yard. Don't you think if noah lived near the black sea and the whole area was submerged for over a year, that noah would consider the whole world to be flooded? Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
foreveryoung writes:
I don't try to read the minds of the people who wrote, compiled and redacted the Genesis story. What it says quite plainly is that the world was created in 6 literal 24-hour days. I don't see any reason to think the authors believed otherwise. (Personally, I've never understood why an omnipotent God would take that long.)
So you think the writer of Genesis 1 thought all of creation was created in 6 literal 24 hour days? foreveryoung writes:
Certainly. I've seen a few local floods in my own lifetime and they all reach "as far as the eye can see." However, that would entirely negate the substance of the story. "I'm going to destroy sinful mankind," would be a pretty lame boast if it happened every year.
Don't you think if noah lived near the black sea and the whole area was submerged for over a year, that noah would consider the whole world to be flooded?
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
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FEY says:
Don't you think if Noah lived near the black sea and the whole area was submerged for over a year, that Noah would consider the whole world to be flooded? Thank you. Indeed, it might just be MOST probable.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 582 days) Posts: 921 Joined:
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I don't try to read the minds of the people who wrote, compiled and redacted the Genesis story. What it says quite plainly is that the world was created in 6 literal 24-hour days. I don't see any reason to think the authors believed otherwise. (Personally, I've never understood why an omnipotent God would take that long.) You don't know the genesis story was compiled and redacted by other people. As far as anyone knows, the whole story came to us straight from moses. Just because it says quite plainly to you that the world was created in 6 literal 24 hour days does not mean that moses intended that meaning. If moses was trying to convey the message that his monotheistic God, the God of the hebrews, was the creator of the world to a bunch of polytheistic nations that surrounded the small hebrew nation and who communicated by way of stories, then 6 literal 24 hour days is probably not what was intended. You don't know the motivation behind the writing of Genesis so what is obvious to you is probably not the truth of the matter.
Certainly. I've seen a few local floods in my own lifetime and they all reach "as far as the eye can see." However, that would entirely negate the substance of the story. "I'm going to destroy sinful mankind," would be a pretty lame boast if it happened every year. Perhaps, if it went down as you say it did. Remember a few points. Noah's world was not the whole world. All of sinful mankind may not be referring to Homo sapiens. We know as a fact that there was an evolution of homonids all the way from australopithicus to homosapiens. We also know that before cro-magnon man, culture and self expression and probably language was non- existent was far as we can tell. The Genesis story seems to indicate the Adam was a special creation whereas the animals and plants etc, were said to have come into existence by "letting the earth bring them forth" (aka evolution). Genesis uses exact years for the age of the patriarchs and the ages at which they gave birth to their first male child. What if culture and self expression and self consciousness were created in the person of Adam around the time of cro-magnon man, and when adam was thrown out of the garden, his progeny intermarried with the homonoids in existence at that time ( homo-ergaster?). The progeny of Adam that did not breed with the other homonoid species are the ones that lived extremely long times and probably did not want to associate with them. It is likely they lived in an area all to themselves such as the black sea area. When they were flooded, you could rightly say that all mankind was destroyed, if you only counted those who were specially created in the garden of eden and not those who evolved from earlier homonids. This would have been a one time ordeal if interbreeding with other homonids took off after the flood. The declining ages of the genesis patriarchs seems to indicate this. Yearly floods could have indeed occurred but they would only wipe out a segment of the population and they certainly would not have wiped out mankind since mankind was no longer purebreed and was widespread throughout the world.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Noah's world was the whole world. Even a thousands of years before Adam humans knew that the world was far larger than just the area they called home. There was trade for food stuffs and trinkets, precious objects and ideas. The folk living along the coast of the Black Sea or in the flat lands of Mesopotamia were not ignorant of travelers, trade goods, stories, gods ...
And yes, if you read Genesis 1 which was written long, long after Genesis 2, it does show that the meaning was to define days as a cycle of night and day and the sacred week as six working days and one non-working day. The whole point of Genesis 1 is days and weeks. Edited by jar, : had a paren in there for some reasonAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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You don't know the genesis story was compiled and redacted by other people. As far as anyone knows, the whole story came to us straight from moses.
What is the actual history of the writing down of the Torah, AKA the Pentateuch? IOW, how long were those stories passed on as oral tradition before they were written down? Biblical scholars place the writing during the Babylonian exile, cerca 600 BCE. Since Moses is dated by Judaism at about 1300 BCE (and even earlier by Christian tradition), that means the Books of Moses were oral tradition for about seven centuries. A lot can happen to an oral tradition in seven centuries. A lot can even happen within just a couple generations.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm talking about looking at the walls of the Grand Canyon from some distance, from which you can see their nice neat flat horizontal undisturbed condition UNTIL THE CANYON WAS CUT THROUGH THE ENTIRE STACK, which occured at the same time as the formation of the Great Unconformity and the uplift. No. YES It's really very obvious once you get the blinders off. ABE: The picture just showed up after I posted this. I have no idea what it's supposed to illustrate.
And besides, why should there be any erosion at all if they just sat unexposed to weathering for billions of years. They didn't sit unexposed to weathering for billions of years. Hence the erosion. I don't think you're talking about the same thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about erosion BETWEEN the layers, which people always bring up as some kind of proof against the idea that the layers wree undisturbed, what are you talking about? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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