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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 526 of 969 (737715)
09-28-2014 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by PaulGL
09-28-2014 6:24 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
Hi Paul
I'd just like to add something to the discussion. The religion is called Christianity. Note that it is Christianity not Bibleianiity. What you are doing IMHO is making an idol out of the Bible. The Bible is not God, and the Bible does not image God. The Bible is a collection of books that tells the narrative of God reaching out to mankind through the ages and culminating in Jesus who actually is the "Word" of God. The Bible is a tool of God used to reach out and inform.
I suggest that the Bible should be used in the following manner. First off realize that the Bible is a book written by fallible men to record their histories and understanding of God. As Christians the place to start is with the resurrection of Jesus. As Paul says, without that we aren't just wasting our time but that we are actually to be pitied.
We can read what others have written, (try NT Wright), and as far as I am concerned the arguments in support of the resurrection being historical are far superior to those against assuming that one is a theist to start with. (If one isn't a theist then it does matter how strong the argument is it would have to be assumed to be wrong.)
On the assumption that the bodily resurrection is historical we then can look at what Jesus tells us in the Gospel to understand what His message and life means to us, and in many cases, particularly in the sermon on the mount he corrects much of what is taught in the OT. In that we can see that He came to establish a Kingdom of followers that are brought into a form of fellowship with Him and are called to reflect God's love, mercy, justice etc into the world including our fellow humans, all living creatures and the entire planet. We are called to servant-hood by the one who washed the feet of His disciples.
We then read the Epistles as a means of understanding how the first Christian theologians understood the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
Let's look at the OT. Jesus was a first century Jew speaking to other first century Jews. If you get a good Bible that is well annotated you can see that a tremendous amount of what we have recorded from the words of Jesus refer directly back to the OT. To actually understand the mission of Jesus we need the OT. However, that is not to say that it was dictated by God. It isn't necessary to turn it into a science text or a newspaper. The creation stories if read properly give us all sorts of Christian insights. However, if you try and turn it into something it was never intended to be then the actual message gets all tangled up in numerous rationalizations.
Evolution as it stands is the best efforts of science to explain the mechanics of how life has arrived at this point. I have very little understanding of it but from what I do know, it is a beautiful system that has in effect created a life form that in the end creates itself and is self correcting. What a marvelous creation it depicts. It is far more creative than the idea, for which there is zero evidence that humans were created complete.
JMHO

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by PaulGL, posted 09-28-2014 6:24 PM PaulGL has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 527 of 969 (737733)
09-29-2014 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by PaulGL
09-28-2014 6:24 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
What evolved characteristic was reached in man that differentiated him from the other creatures?
Our level of cognitive capacity and tool use. That's about it as far as I can see.
There seems to be no evidence of a soul or spirit.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by PaulGL, posted 09-28-2014 6:24 PM PaulGL has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by RAZD, posted 10-01-2014 8:31 AM Larni has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 528 of 969 (737740)
09-29-2014 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by PaulGL
09-28-2014 6:24 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
What if God used evolution to create man?
Then that would make God far more intelligent than the dumb idiot God that creationists insist upon.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 529 of 969 (737860)
10-01-2014 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by Larni
09-29-2014 6:43 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
What evolved characteristic was reached in man that differentiated him from the other creatures?
Our level of cognitive capacity and tool use. That's about it as far as I can see.
There are other animals that exhibit these abilities, and the difference is more a difference in degree of ability than a different kind\type of ability.
The one characteristic that differentiates man from other species is the same characteristic that differentiates any other species from all other species -- reproductive isolation of the breeding population.
But destruction of habitat is coming in a close second ... (and that isn't very intelligent imho)
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Larni, posted 09-29-2014 6:43 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 530 of 969 (737888)
10-01-2014 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by RAZD
10-01-2014 8:31 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
Yeah, I didn't mean to say animals did not have cogntion but that our level of it was greater.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by RAZD, posted 10-01-2014 8:31 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 531 of 969 (737889)
10-01-2014 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by PaulGL
09-28-2014 6:24 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
What if "what ifs" are pointless?
.
What if huge copy-&-pastes are against the forum guidelines?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by PaulGL, posted 09-28-2014 6:24 PM PaulGL has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 532 of 969 (738148)
10-05-2014 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by GDR
09-28-2014 7:46 PM


Gish Gallop
You like lots of Gish Gallop.

This message is a reply to:
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zaius137
Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 533 of 969 (739227)
10-22-2014 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by GDR
09-28-2014 7:46 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Evolution as it stands is the best efforts of science to explain the mechanics of how life has arrived at this point.
Well not actually Evolution does not explain the origin of life (see the NCSE definition, first paragraph).
it is not a "theory of origins" about how life began Evolution | National Center for Science Education
quote:
I have very little understanding of it but from what I do know, it is a beautiful system that has in effect created a life form that in the end creates itself and is self correcting.
Well not actually Evolutions champion is death. Organisms can not advance without a price.
quote:
What a marvelous creation it depicts.
Well not actually Survival of the fittest, reproductive dominance, selfish DNA.
quote:
It is far more creative than the idea, for which there is zero evidence that humans were created complete.
Well not actually Evidence in our DNA denies common descent in general and exhibits a young genome not hundreds of thousands of years old.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by GDR, posted 09-28-2014 7:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by GDR, posted 10-22-2014 1:59 AM zaius137 has replied
 Message 536 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 3:46 AM zaius137 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 534 of 969 (739230)
10-22-2014 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 533 by zaius137
10-22-2014 1:06 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
zaius137 writes:
Well not actually Evolution does not explain the origin of life
Agreed
zaius137 writes:
Well not actually Evolutions champion is death. Organisms can not advance without a price.
We live in an entropic world. Death allows for new life.
zaius137 writes:
Well not actually Survival of the fittest, reproductive dominance, selfish DNA.
Can't be entirely true. I exist.
zaius137 writes:
Well not actually Evidence in our DNA denies common descent in general and exhibits a young genome not hundreds of thousands of years old.
I'll go with the experts and there are a few of those around here. (I am definitely not one of them.)

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by zaius137, posted 10-22-2014 1:06 AM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
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zaius137
Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 535 of 969 (739232)
10-22-2014 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 534 by GDR
10-22-2014 1:59 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Can't be entirely true. I exist.
Case in point
quote:
I’ll go with the experts and there are a few of those around here. (I am definitely not one of them.)
How do you know I am not an expert?

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Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(1)
Message 536 of 969 (739237)
10-22-2014 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 533 by zaius137
10-22-2014 1:06 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
Evidence in our DNA denies common descent in general and exhibits a young genome not hundreds of thousands of years old.
Would you care to share this evidence of (a) a young genome, and (b) evidence in our DNA that denies common descent?
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 537 of 969 (739248)
10-22-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by zaius137
10-22-2014 2:12 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
How do you know I am not an expert?
Because you are spouting crap.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
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zaius137
Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 538 of 969 (739266)
10-22-2014 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 536 by Genomicus
10-22-2014 3:46 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Would you care to share this evidence of (a) a young genome, and (b) evidence in our DNA that denies common descent?
Speaking of the human genome.
The "effective population (Ne)" is approximately 10,000 in the current population of ~ 7 billion. This could not be if there was not a recent origin or a recent bottleneck in human ancestry. Large populations of organisms drift by polymorphisms over large timespans, increasing the "effective population" unless they have experienced the above mentioned.
Since the acceptance of indels as percentage divergence between humans and chimps, evolution can not maintain a 5.6 million year split between humans and chimps. Paleoanthropology can not accommodate the new similarity percentage of 95%.

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zaius137
Member (Idle past 3410 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 539 of 969 (739267)
10-22-2014 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by Theodoric
10-22-2014 9:28 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Because you are spouting crap.
I will endeavor to discuss only facts with you, unless your only arguments are ad hominem.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 540 of 969 (739268)
10-22-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by zaius137
10-22-2014 11:30 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
The "effective population (Ne)" is approximately 10,000 in the current population of ~ 7 billion.
You got a source for that?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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