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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 316 of 892 (794027)
11-09-2016 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by RAZD
11-09-2016 2:48 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
It was more a comment that even in a tight fought binary choice between Clinton and the worst arse wipe that could possibly be chosen, we were still hearing a steady stream of negativity from the progressive left towards Clinton. I don't know if this swayed the result, from the detailed voting data - but I suspect it had an impact.
She wasn't perfect, by any means (cue another condescending list of statements and photos from dronestar , coupled with an accusation that I am understating the position and not as left wing as him and therefore a monster), but she was the only alternative you had. However heartfelt, genuine and accurate statements were, in the lead-up to the election, that eg she makes bad choices and would therefore be a bad leader, the only impact they could possibly have had at that time was to benefit Trump.
The time to have had that debate would have been after a Clinton win, in the better of two bad scenarios, wouldn't it ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 2:48 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 4:30 AM vimesey has replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 317 of 892 (794028)
11-09-2016 4:15 AM


I woke up on the morning of Tuesday, November 4, 1980, to the news that during the night the entire nation had just jumped hard to the right. Today, I woke up early to the news that during the night the entire nation had just jumped into a cesspool.
As bad as the prospect of Trump in the White House is that ain’t the worst of it. The Republicans retain the Senate. That means conservative jurists on the Supreme Court and on the hundred+ other vacant federal benches across the nation. That means the loss of reproductive rights, the loss of marriage rights, the loss of voting rights, the loss of civil rights, the loss of human rights for generations to come.
Again, we learn to never underestimate the stupidity of the American electorate.
On behalf of what little remains of American National sanity, I apologize to the nations and to the people of Earth.
I think I’m going to be sick
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 318 of 892 (794029)
11-09-2016 4:17 AM


What a sad day for America and also for the rest of the world. One good thing about it, though, is that Trump is not openly a fundamentalist religious fanatic.
I think some of the lessons which could be learned from all of this are:
1. Polling certainly is not an exact science such as the natural sciences.
2. Pollsters can't really always be trusted to reflect reality. Their methods seem to be inefficient.
3. Some people tell untruths about who they intend to vote for.
4. Some people forget who they voted for a few minutes after leaving the polling stations.
5. Some people are too scared to admit who they are going to vote for.
6. Some people are too scared to admit who they voted for when confronted by pollsters at the exists.
As a sideline, the LA Times/USC Tracking polls 'predicted' a narrow national Trump victory quite a few months ago. They were quite right this time, but a few elections ago they were way out.

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 319 of 892 (794030)
11-09-2016 4:24 AM


EVC out of touch with reality
So Mr. Trump was not my first choice, Ted Cruz was, but I can live with Trump, and a Republican Senate and a Republican House.
You guys got this as right as you did the Brexit vote........maybe your left wing crap is out on the lunatic fringe.
Keep telling us who you think we are and what we think....it's your road to oblivion.
Have a nice day!

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 320 of 892 (794031)
11-09-2016 4:27 AM


With the closest people in my life undocumented immigrants and LGBTQ+, the effects of the election result will be all-too real. Sux.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 321 of 892 (794032)
11-09-2016 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by vimesey
11-09-2016 3:16 AM


The Clinton Failure
She wasn't perfect, by any means ...
She came to the race bloodied and bleeding from years of GOP propaganda, and it would have taken a Gandhi to overcome the pre-installed hatred in the GOP base ...
... but she also damaged her own campaign by spitting on the progressive half of the party.
The time to have had that debate would have been after a Clinton win, in the better of two bad scenarios, wouldn't it ?
The time to have that debate is in honest primaries running up to the convention, instead of one finagled to crown Hillary and shove Bernie supporters into the shadows. When you push people away, you can't expect them to vote for you. Surprise, they didn't:
quote:
What's happening now: Nation gripped by nail-biter race
All the latest news, results and key moments as the 2016 election
Our number crunchers found that among more than 2,000 counties where at least 90% of the vote is reported, Clinton is performing worse than any Democratic nominee since at least Al Gore in 2000.
Two-thirds of U.S. counties have reported nearly complete results.
Clinton is doing very badly. pic.twitter.com/C5vmVLkodv
That is not because of Bernie or third party supporters, it is because, like Gore, she failed to draw voters to the polls: more people did not vote than voted for third parties, AGAIN. Lesson not learned.
When you tell the people that are hurting that you will keep the status quo and only make incremental changes of no significance, that isn't going to inspire them to vote for you.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by vimesey, posted 11-09-2016 3:16 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 322 of 892 (794033)
11-09-2016 4:37 AM


What a mess!
Well, Americans, you've really surpassed yourselves now with this awful result.
How the hell could you have chosen this abominable, aggravating, alienating, appalling, asocial, bigoted, bizarre, blunt, bullying, callous, cheating, childish, clumsy, coarse, cold, conceited, confused, contemptible, cowardly, crazy, crooked, cruel, cynical, dim-witted, disconnected, discourteous, disgusting, dishonest, disloyal, dismal, disreputable, disrespectful, disruptive, divisive, domineering, egocentric, embarrassing, exasperating, fascist, fickle, foolish, foulmouthed, fraudulent, frightening, graceless, greedy, hateful, haughty, hostile, hurtful, hypocritical, ignorant, impatient, inadequate, incoherent, insidious, irate, irksome, irresponsible, irritating, islamophobic, jealous, lying, mad, malicious, manipulative, merciless, miserable, misogynistic, narcissistic, obnoxious, outrageous, pathetic, pathological, patronising, petty, petulant, pompous, provocative, racist, reckless, repugnant, repulsive, ruthless, self-righteous, sexist, shallow, shocking, silly, simpleminded, spiteful, stupid, tyrannical, unnerving, unreasonable, unworthy, vile, vindictive, vitriolic, vulgar, wicked excuse of a human being for president?
This clown is a disgrace for your country. How could you not have seen the outright lies he spouted during the campaign? The absolute low was when he accused Obama of screaming at a supporter of Hillary's opponent, while in fact Obama was doing the exact opposite, trying to calm to booing Democrat crowd and defending the man's right to express his opinion. Everybody could see the footage of both Obama's galant conduct and the buffoon's dishonest lies about it. That alone should have been enough to clinch it for Hillary. But no, you had to go and allow this scrotum to take the highest office in your country, putting the whole world at risk because this idiot, who wonders why you can't use nuclear weapons if you have them, now has his finger on the button. Thanks a lot!
You've gotten the world in a right mess this time. I wasn't frequenting this site a lot lately, but now I think I no longer want anything to do with the Divided States of America. I am going to find me another site (Canadian perhaps?) with more sensible people to talk to. See you in eight years, perhaps, when you've come to your senses.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 323 of 892 (794034)
11-09-2016 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Parasomnium
11-09-2016 4:37 AM


Re: What a mess!
Well, Americans, you've really surpassed yourselves now with this awful result.
It gets worse ...
President GOP
Senate GOP
House GOP
Supreme Court nominations GOP
over 100 outstanding federal judge appointments GOP
Obamacare repeal
Social Security privatized
etc
Page not found | USUNCUT - US News | Breaking News | Latest News Today
quote:
According to CNBC, Dow Jones futures are down by approximately 500 points as the chances of a Trump victory become more likely as the night wears on.

It will take decades to undo this fiasco, and we're not done undoing Schrubbia's legacy.
Edited by RAZD, : stocks

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 324 of 892 (794035)
11-09-2016 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by RAZD
11-09-2016 4:30 AM


Re: The Clinton Failure
That I agree with (although I would add that after Bernie lost the primary (however unfairly), then the Clinton negativity could usefully have been suspended more than it was from those who disagreed with the primary outcome, but there you go).
I echo what I hear from you, which is that something now has to be done to level the playing field back again. In the UK too, we're hearing increasingly strident right wing extremism from certain quarters, claiming to speak for "the people". Suggestions that our institutions need tearing down, or democratic protections (such as the independence of the judiciary) need removing.
This is so dangerous, it makes me feel sick - but any voices raised against this right wing rhetoric are shouted down as politically correct, or left wing press, and that received "wisdom" is lapped up by large numbers of people.
We need to speak to the large parts of our countries who are listening to this right wing rhetoric, and listen to them. Understand them. Speak with them. But most of all, listen. Because as you rightly say, if we don't offer them an alternative path to a better future, they'll believe that the better future lies in the nationalistic, xenophobic, neanderthal vision of the Farages/Trumps/Putins. There has to be a counterbalance, which is realistic and attractive.
There's a quotation at the entrance to the visitors' centre at the holocaust memorial in Berlin. I forget the exact words, and will try to look them up. But it's along the lines "We know it can happen again, because we know it's already happened."

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 4:30 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(8)
Message 325 of 892 (794040)
11-09-2016 6:30 AM


My reactions.
  • Lord help us.
  • This too shall pass.
  • It will have its own particulars, but this is a disaster on a scale of 9/11, the Great Depression, the Holocaust.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 7:06 AM Percy has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 326 of 892 (794041)
11-09-2016 6:30 AM


I see that Hillary is starting to overtake Donald in the popular vote with those results coming in from California. Maybe Americans should consider dropping those delegates for a more fair result. I mean, in my lifetime two candidates got elected as Presidents of the USA (Bush the Second the first time and now Donald) with a minority in popular votes. That's not very democratic.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 327 of 892 (794043)
11-09-2016 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by vimesey
11-09-2016 5:00 AM


Re: The Clinton Failure
I just found the quotation. It's by Primo Levi, an Auschwitz survivor: "It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere."
Much more elegant than my poor recollection.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by vimesey, posted 11-09-2016 5:00 AM vimesey has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 328 of 892 (794044)
11-09-2016 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Percy
11-09-2016 6:30 AM


Re: My reactions.
... But this is a disaster on a scale of 9/11, the Great Depression, the Holocaust.
    I keep hitting the
    Do Nothing Button

    ...
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by Admin, : Fix do nothing button.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Percy, posted 11-09-2016 6:30 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 329 of 892 (794045)
11-09-2016 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by RAZD
11-09-2016 7:06 AM


Re: My reactions.
Yes, RAZD. Some people tend to be overly dramatic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 7:06 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 330 of 892 (794046)
11-09-2016 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by RAZD
11-09-2016 7:06 AM


Re: My reactions.
Fixed your "Do Nothing Button".
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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