Could mainstream christianity ever make peace with gay people?

1. "Exoldus (It's Exodus, but I'll forgive you) 21:2-24 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself"a. In that time slavery was legal. The Bible was possibly the only book that suggested that slaves be let go after only six years. If you can avoid breaking a federal law without sacrificing your moral standards than it is a good thing. This does not mean that you should not fight an unjust law, but if you can deal with it until you are free and not break the law, it is better.2. "1Tim. 6:1-5 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain."b. first this verse speaks about having a non-believing master. Even if it is not right to have a slave, that does not give the right for the slave to be disrespectful. You are supposed to honor anyone who has power over your life. Like I said before, you could fight against the unjust situation you are in, but while anyone still has power over you, you have to respect them. For example, you may have a really mean teacher who always grades you just a little bit harder than anyone else. This may be unfair, and you have the right to work and make the unfair treatment stop, but you should still respect your teacher. Next is talks about a believing master. All it is saying here is that if the master is believing then there is really no point in leaving, because you are already working for God.3. "Eph. 6:5-6 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart."c. This is just what I said before, as long as your master is still in control of you, you need to respect them.

4. "Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."d. This doesn't say anything about black people. If any religious leader used this to spearhead slavery, then it is not a fault of the Bible, but a fault of the man who lied about what it said.

5."Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."e. This has nothing to do with the rights of women, it is saying that homosexuality is a sin. By saying what it said about the "natural use of women", it was only saying that it is natural for men to be with women and not men.6. "1 Corinth. 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."f. Have you ever heard of the term "man of the house"? Also, it says that the head of Christ is God. According to the trinity Christ IS God, and God is the SYMBOLIC head of Christ. Husband and wife are on the same level.7. "1 Corinth. 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."g. You have to consider what time period this was in. A woman not wearing a cover on her head to church is similar to a woman nowadays going to church half naked. What is acceptable in society, aside from moral basis, changes as time progresses.8. "1 Corinth. 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."h. This is just showing that men are supposed to be the leader of the church. Similar to being the head of the house, the pastor is the leader of the church. This does not mean that women are not supposed to be part of the church at all, but it does mean that they are not supposed to be the leader of the church.

Lemkin writes:That is one of the best ways I have ever heard free will explained.

I am assuming for the sake of arguement that homosexual activity is a sin in Gods eyes. If you want to discuss with someone who assumes something else then that's fair enough by me.

Whose morality do you think should hold sway? Yours? A committee of the "wise"? Should it be what's "good in the eye of the beholder"?

I'll avoid saying that I know God exists in an absolute way.

Schraf has a nose for these things and will down here like a rat up an aquaduct with the same old objections. We'd just get sidetracked

The issue is not whether there is peace and understanding between the church and gay/lesbianism

The issue is peace between God and the individual. God has no expectation that the church will be at peace with the world. He specifically says it won't be. He doesn't intend it to be.

Everyone has a moral framework on which they hang their view. You have your's (whatever it is). I have mine: Gods word. Muzzle that and there can be only silence from me.

Granny Magda writes: So long as you assume that there will be no peace between gays and the church.

You keep talking about God, what he wants and how we can become close to him, but that is not the issue under discussion here. The topic is "Could mainstream christianity ever make peace with gay people?".

Whose morality do you think should hold sway? Yours? A committee of the "wise"? Should it be what's "good in the eye of the beholder"?

How about you stop basing your argument on what you think God says, so we don't have to pursue that line of reasoning?

And there we have it ladies and gentlemen, the reason why there isn't going to be peace between gay people and the church any time soon; Christians like Iano just don't want peace. They think the antagonism is a good thing.

Since Rahvin has already pursued you on this one and discovered that you have absolutely no morals of your own, I don't see much point pursuing this.

Save to say that your god-based substitute for morality isn't much use to society at large.

The rest of your argument is just repetition of your "God says" attitude, an attitude that has held sway for centuries and done nothing to foster peace. But of course, that's not what you want is it?

Just because men and women are treated differently, doesn't mean that their treatment is unequal.

Are you saying that they are the same? Usually men do more manual labor than women, this is because most men are stronger than most women. Their treatment is different, but it is not unequal. Let's just imagine you have a goldfish and a dog. Your treatment of them would probably be very different. You would probably not walk your fish, and you would probably not put your dog in a large tank of water. This is because the fish and the dog are DIFFERENT. They are not being treated unequally, they are just being treated differently.

The ten commandments are not the only things you are supposed to follow. In the Bible God sent Moses to save the Israelites from slavery. Also, the Bible says that you should love your neighbor. Enslaving your neighbor isn't exactly very loving.

What about Christian gays (or former gays) who accept and struggle with homosexual acts being sinful and who attend a church that holds that view? I'll go on line and find one for you - but only if your prepared to concede the point when I do.

If the only way a sinner can be reconciled is for the church to say they are not sinning then for sure there will be no reconilation.

No need to go looking, I am well aware that such people exist. They are a minority of homosexuals.

Those of us who support gay rights won't accept that homosexual activity is sinful. Ever. In fact, many of us have no interest in your god or the concept of sin. They are barriers to social change, that's all.

Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

As to gay rights, the view down my way would be that it is not for the church to interfere with the secular authorities decision to assign rights (or not) to gays. If it is decided that gays be allowed a marriage-like union, then fine. If they want to call it marriage then fine too. That gays would not be permitted to marry in the church (or have a secular union recognised as marriage under God) wouldn't be a denial of rights anymore than would the refusal to permit a man and his mother marry... be a denial of rights.

It's unfortunate.

iano writes:Perhaps God's wrath...does..take the form of tsunami's and hurricanes and disease.

Jaderis writes:In their eyes, there is no separation of church and state actions because the whole country is supposedly under some kind of mandate from God, so whatever the government and/or society does or doesn't do will be acted upon by God.