|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Tower of Babel | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Eli Member (Idle past 3512 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
I think it's been a good run for discussions regarding the Garden of Eden and Noah's flood being allegory, but I think it's time to advance beyond the tiring discussions of "yown can mean an era" and " the flood was local" which we are spinning wheels on presently and get into the literal veracity of Nimrod's story.
I think it is best if creationists ar made to visit the subject alongside the Ark mythos and magic tree business. So, i suppose my question is, when are we going to operate on the premise that the discussion is over regarding the first two narratives and stop giving creos the floor to discuss that which is settled and move on to addressing literal claims on how language was diversified according to the bible?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread copied here from the Tower of Babel thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I tend to look at it like this:
I comment on Genesis 11 in this video.
quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Ha I'd totally forgot this story, I can remember my dad reading me this when I was little and being confused by it even then. The OT God is such a jerk.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Eli Member (Idle past 3512 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
Some languages diversify due to technical jargon used by specialists.
I think that the tower is a metaphor for diversity within the culture arising through class rankings. As with any building project, we have the labourer who has a specific skillset and unique terminology for tools and techniques. Such as "gypsum" or "gypsumboard" is jargon for what the layman might call "drywall". Then you have "greenboard" which is drywall used for damp applications, whereas, again, the layman might request "mold-resistent drywall." The point being that many languages or sublanguages, "slang' exist within a building project. The foremen, of course, must be familiar with all these languages and have another language all their own. What we see is a division of work and hence, a division of classes and cultural identity.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Some languages diversify due to technical jargon used by specialists. Any evidence for this?Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
think that the tower is a metaphor for diversity within the culture arising through class rankings. Well the story always sounded to me as an attempt to explain the fact that people could not understand foreignors despite the fact that everyone alive was only a few generations from removed from Noah and his boys who presumably all understood each other. There are way more people in China right now than there probably were during the time period this story depicts. Do you think it is possible for the Chinese to build a tower to reach heaven?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
If it can be agreed that the tower of Babel story is a myth/allegorical tale does that not suggest that Noah probably is too.
Even the motivations of the characters in the story seems to come from a very different canon/continuum from the Noah story(I'm a huge comic geek, these sorta things come up all the time in comic book discussions, when u have loads of different writers and editors these things are inevitable. For comparison sake the main line marvel continuum [where Spiderman etc you would recognise are from] is Earth 616 - that's a lot of Earths and it's to accomidate the amount of conflicting timelines that occur in modern writing even with a big team of very talented writers)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
If it can be agreed that the tower of Babel story is a myth/allegorical tale does that not suggest that Noah probably is too. No. You'd have to make an independent, but not too difficult assessment to reach that conclusion. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Eli Member (Idle past 3512 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
Sure. The French language supplanting Latin in the 16th century, French being used for law and administration in the public record, then adopted/adapted for use in literature.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Eli Member (Idle past 3512 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
You mean like they did in South Park?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Otto Tellick Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 288 From: PA, USA Joined:
|
The flood story as rendered in the OT has clear markings of being derivative from an older oral tradition, not unique to the Israelites. Other groups, prior to or contemporary with the OT authors, had different accounts (involving different gods with different motivations, and different characters with different interactions), but with a substantial set of common features in the narrative (there was a flood, a single boat, pairs of animals, etc).
The Tower story has always struck me as being of the same genre: it's another "just so" story shared by multiple groups with distinct "histories" to tell, and the OT version is just one among several. But I haven't succeeded (yet) in finding a "cognate" tale among the other traditions that surrounded or preceded the Israelites. If anyone knows of such, I'd be grateful for some info on that. (I've looked into "Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta", but from what little I've seen so far, its relevance to the Tower of Babel seems tenuous.) Apart from looking at its cultural origin, we can reasonably question the Babel account with regard to its (lack of) coherence. In a nutshell, it shows God making what must be the biggest mistake of His career in interacting with humans: having confounded everyone's language, His own words, spoken to the Israelites before and after the Tower event, as wells as the words spoken later by Jesus, were gibberish to the vast majority of contemporaries, and to virtually everyone alive today. As a result, every attempt that humans make to "understand" those words requires a laborious, confusing, and ultimately imperfect process of "translation" into this or that other language. It seems like a truly pathetic yet laughable case of unintended consequences, and of taking action without taking the time to think it through. A pretty serious gaff, really, given the importance of "preserving God's exact words." (The Muslims have an interesting take on this: if you don't make a personal commitment to learn the ancient form of Arabic used by their special prophet, you absolutely do not qualify as a real believer in their religion, and you can't hope, let alone claim, to really understand their beliefs. Of course, had this been literally true, and fully enforced, Islam would have died out generations ago. If only...) Another point is the implication that Hebrew must have been the one single language that everyone spoke before the event. I mean, it really would have been way too stupid of God to change the language of the Israelites (as per the points made above about gibberish and translation). If that's the inescapable assertion, it's readily disproved, using linguistic and archeological evidence that unambiguously places Hebrew in a nested hierarchy descended from a language that is known to be older than Hebrew, and differs from it in ways that follow natural patterns of commonly observed linguistic changes. It's remarkably analogous to genetic descent (but different in interesting ways). We could also go into the imponderable mechanics of the magical feat at Babel: the unconsciously formed neuro-muscular habits that control the coordinated movements of jaw, lips, tongue, uvula, vocal folds and lungs all suddenly change? And would it have been the case that a person thus affected was then unable to understand his/her own speech? (If such an experiment were possible, could the subject actually survive?) Were specific "subsets" of mutual intelligibility preserved at the Tower, so that people who were most closely related (or happened to have a common geographic origin) could still talk to each other? It doesn't take long to reach a point where the concept becomes untenably nonsensical. No amount of inventive imagination would save it. But anyone who gives credence to the story at all isn't going to be concerned about the details, so this line of questioning is a dead end. Even questions about the timing of the event, relative to what is known about language diversity going back at least 7000 years, won't be much use against a believer. There's a convenient vagueness on this point, except from the young-earth literalists, who are already so thoroughly refuted in so many ways. I would just add that a decent understanding of how we acquire and use natural language not only suffices to explain the observed facts about linguistic variation and change (though there is still plenty to be learned about how it works); it can also lead us toward a better understanding of the human condition, of what our potentials and our limitations are, and even, in some regards, a better understanding of how our perception, cognition, and culture affect our interaction with and comprehension of reality. Edited by Otto Tellick, : No reason given.autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I imagine that this will be another reason for hooah21200 to call me an old fogie, but I've never watched that show. About the only thing I know about South Park was that Isaac Hayes played a chef on the show until the show poked fun at Scientology.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
The French language supplanting Latin in the 16th century, French being used for law and administration in the public record, then adopted/adapted for use in literature. And before this French had not diversified enough from Latin and its other parents to be considered its own language?Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5946 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
As in biology, the boundaries between dialects and languages can be difficult to ascertain and can therefore be set arbitrarily.
There are many regional dialects of German and which are considered by Germans to be very difficult to understand. We also saw the same thing with English in PBS' The Story of English where Englishmen speaking their own dialects had to be subtitled for the audience to be able to understand them; this was done to comic effect in Hot Fuzz when a chain of two constables were needed to interpret what a local farmer was saying (the constable who could understand the farmer could not be understood by the sergeant, so another constable had to interpret for him). In the general region of Belgium and the Netherlands alone there are several distinct dialects of German. So when do they stop being a dialect of German and become a language in their own right? According to the encyclopedia I grew up with, Dutch became its own language about 400 years ago when it developed its own literature. Nothing changed in Dutch at that point except that an arbitrary decision was made about its linguistical status. So then the same thing could have happened with French, in that a change in how it was used, namely that it started being used in literature, caused an arbitrary decision to be made about its status as a language. Says nothing about how French had developed over time.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024