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Author Topic:   Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 993 (798083)
01-30-2017 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Diomedes
01-30-2017 3:21 PM


Pretty weird goings on here. All Trump did was what Obama had already done some years ago, but nobody protested Obama's action. If I got this right Obama is a sleazy hypocrite for now condemning Trump's doing what he himself did.
Also, there are laws that prescribe the action. I heard a couple such laws read on the air at Infowars, by different callers to the program, giving all the pertinent reference information, on one of those audio sessions I couldn't take notes on fast enough. Perhaps I can find an article that details it all. I'll see.
Or just let the weirdness play out. Eventually the truth will out.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 62 of 993 (798084)
01-30-2017 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
01-30-2017 4:34 PM


Does the Green Card actually give full Constitutional protection of due process to aliens?
I find this question a bit strange. Do you believe that only citizens of the United States have real Constitutional rights?
The answer is of course that green card holders do not have all of the rights of citizens. They are subject to removal proceedings if they violate immigration law, and they cannot vote. But having them reside in this country without every other right would be pretty funky. Even illegal immigrants have due process rights.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 63 of 993 (798085)
01-30-2017 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
01-30-2017 5:57 PM


Pretty weird goings on here. All Trump did was what Obama had already done some years ago ...
This is, of course, not true.

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 Message 61 by Faith, posted 01-30-2017 5:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 64 of 993 (798086)
01-30-2017 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
01-30-2017 4:34 PM


What I don't know is: 1) Does the Green Card actually give full Constitutional protection of due process to aliens?
Not even a green card is usually necessary. A foreigner in the US has the right to free speech, a fair trial, etc; most of the usual protections a citizen has. In the case of due process:
The U.S. Supreme Court settled the issue well over a century ago. But even before the court laid the issue to rest, a principal author of the Constitution, James Madison, the second president of the United States, wrote: "that as they [aliens], owe, on the one hand, a temporary obedience, they are entitled, in return, to their [constitutional] protection and advantage."
More recently, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Zadvydas v. Davis (2001) that "due process" of the 14th Amendment applies to all aliens in the United States whose presence maybe or is "unlawful, involuntary or transitory."
So a fortiori this is true of legal residents with green cards.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 993 (798087)
01-30-2017 7:01 PM


Some legal and other comments on the travel ban from the Right Side
Here's the law I heard about at Infowars, quoted at Frontpagemag.com. Frontpage also reports that Trump has no intention of defying the court order, although...
President Trump would clearly be on firm ground if he wanted to flaunt Donnelly’s order. Federal immigration law states:
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.
As former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy writes, Section 1182(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act:
...plainly and sweepingly authorizes the president to issue temporary bans on the entry of classes of aliens for national-security purposes. This is precisely what President Trump has done. In fact, in doing so, he expressly cites Section 1182(f), and his executive order tracks the language of the statute (finding the entry of aliens from these countries at this time would be detrimental to the interests of the United States).
And for anyone who missed it, I refer you again to Townhall's discussion in Message 1.
And Infowars has some brief audio reports on the subject:
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(4)
Message 66 of 993 (798090)
01-30-2017 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
01-30-2017 7:57 AM


Under Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, Congress’s powers in this area are plenary, and the president’s powers are as broad as the Congress chooses to give him.
Odd you never used this to defend Obama's actions.
They forgot the Judiciary's role in this for some reason.
Liberals are likewise on both unwise and unpopular ground in sneering at the idea that there might be an increased risk of radical Islamist terrorism resulting from large numbers of Muslims entering the country as refugees or asylees.
Large numbers?
There have been many such cases in Europe
Many?
ranging from terrorists (as in the Brussels attack)
Hrm:
Ibrahim El Bakraoui - Morocco, not on the list.
Najim Laachraoui - Morocco
Mohamed Abrini - Belgium, not on the list
Khalid El Bakraoui - Belgium
Osama Krayem - Sweden, not on the list
Well Trump's order would have been ineffective against these guys.
The 9/11 plotters
Egyptian and Saudi Arabian. No impact there.
Tsarnaev
Kyrgyzstan - no use.
Times Square bomber was a Pakistani immigrant
Pakistan, not included.
Fun fact - it was a Muslim immigrant that notified the police who were able to evacuate the area.
underwear bomber was from Nigeria
So wouldn't have been prevented.
the San Bernardino shooter
Enrique Marquez Jr. - America, N/A
Syed Rizwan Farook - America, N/A
Tashfeen Malik - Pakistan, not on the list
the Chattanooga shooter was from Kuwait
Not covered.
the Fort Hood shooter
Nidal Hasan, America, N/A

Is it not bothersome that involved agencies weren't consulted?
That little care was taken to ensure consitutionality?
That the agencies that would be executing the order were not properly briefed and had varying interpretations of the order?
That the Administration had no record keeping in place and were unable to advise how many people had been affected by the order?

liberal "snowflakes" melt into silly tears over
What a snowflaky opinion
This from someone who spent the last 8 years clutching pearls at Obama's reign of terror that he forgot to carry out? Who cried and whinged citing fake news about photoshopped signs and cited forged birth certificates and cried mercilessly about the persecution of Christians when a handful of people got sued? Yeah, your snowflake rhetoric comes across as laughably absurd.
Oo oo oo let's all cower before the murdering ideology
You are cowering. Oooo, we can't let fleeing people into the country, even though we are at least partially responsible for collapsing their society, because some of them might want to hurt us using methods that are designed to be all scary, lord help us what a calamity!
I have no fear of them. I do however recognize that handing them more ammunition for their propaganda war will make things worse - which makes things better for war profiteers.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 01-30-2017 7:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 01-30-2017 8:18 PM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 993 (798092)
01-30-2017 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Modulous
01-30-2017 7:54 PM


Under Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, Congress’s powers in this area are plenary, and the president’s powers are as broad as the Congress chooses to give him.
Odd you never used this to defend Obama's actions.
I don't recall him needing any defense since nobody was protesting when he issued such orders.

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 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2017 7:54 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2017 8:54 PM Faith has replied

  
Porosity
Member (Idle past 2094 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


(3)
Message 68 of 993 (798093)
01-30-2017 8:24 PM


Jihadist groups hail Trump’s travel ban as a victory
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...2f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html
Trump's executive order clearly proves he's not interested in national security, only in feeding the irrational fear of his delusional base.
The very thing they fear, they are feeding, grooming and growing. If any would be terrorist was on the fence about doing harm to the U.S. is now justified in their minds to do so.
You cannot win the hearts and minds of people with discrimination.

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 69 of 993 (798094)
01-30-2017 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
01-30-2017 8:18 PM


I don't recall him needing any defense since nobody was protesting when he issued such orders.
quote:
And do you get out of what Jefferson wrote that if half the nation (my half) passionately opposes what the other half (yours) deems to be "current realities" that your half can force that on the other, either by the Supreme Court's making the Constitution mean whatever seems to favor those supposed "current realities" or by the Executive Branch's declaring it by executive order?
I'd call that despotism myself
Faith, Gun Control Again, Message 1481
Sounds like you were protesting forcing something that half the country opposes by executive order of Obama.
from here

Protest against Obama's Executive Orders:
"Hang the lying Kenyan traitor!"
"Wouldn't be the first one hung on one of them trees."
"We've got rope"
"Don't snap his neck, you pull him up watch him choke to death"
quote:
President Obama, in all his infinite wisdom, has decided to throw away over 200 years of constitutional precedent and write an executive order severely limiting our second amendment.
Tea Party's website
Your own words, an image, a video and a website. All found within a few minutes of looking.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 01-30-2017 8:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 01-30-2017 9:31 PM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 993 (798097)
01-30-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Porosity
01-30-2017 8:24 PM


Liberal Fantasy is the true cause of Islamist \violence in trhe west
Jihadist groups hail Trump’s travel ban as a victory
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...2f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html
Trump's executive order clearly proves he's not interested in national security, only in feeding the irrational fear of his delusional base.
The very thing they fear, they are feeding, grooming and growing. If any would be terrorist was on the fence about doing harm to the U.S. is now justified in their minds to do so.
You cannot win the hearts and minds of people with discrimination.
Wow, such clever propaganda. Designed to seduce the wacko gullible liberal mind. They do it so well.
  • Lie about the effect of Trump's ban. It's certainly not a sense of victory, because in reality it's a resounding defeat that they are dissembling for the sake of deceiving leftist kooks.
  • Lie about what motivates Islamist terrorists. It's purely ideological, they are not motivated by circumstances, except as they are taught to pretend to be to deceive leftist kooks. When the infidel is strong and aggressively opposes them they retreat rather than seeking to do the harm that Islam requires of them. That happens when their opponents are weak and seek to placate them, which is why violence is growing in Europe. Poor silly PC-crippled Europeans who tolerate all their raping and other violence and invite them to express their evil Sharia Law and weep big tears as if it's their own fault when these ideologically driven people do what their ideology drives them to do. Sheesh, liberals are nuts. Suicidally ridiculously nuts.
  • Lie about the sane rational objective understanding of the supporters of the ban. a) Call us fearful. We're not, you are with your cowardly policy of appeasement of people you actually acknowledge to be dangerous by that policy. That is, YOU are scared of a Muslimj sittin gon the fence who might become violent if anyone dares to oppose their will. So you tippytoe around them, so as not to wake up the violence you tacitly acknowledge is characteristic of them. b) Call us racists. We're not. You may be though, since liberals tend to view everything as a matter of race, and manage to completely ignore the true reasons for 1) Trump's action and our attitude, which is based on an objective recognition of what in reality motivates Islamists since we aren't sentimental weepy-faced fools like liberals who persist in your silly culturebound fantasy about everything to do with this problem; 2) your own fearful placating strategy which is based on your culturebound projection/fantasy of their motives; 3) Islamist behavior itself, which is ideologically driven and not a consequence of your silly liberal fantasy of psychobabble explanations. Keep it up, have it your way, suppress the truth: They'll laugh as they watch liberal heads roll. Literally.
  • Lie about the possibility of winning hearts and minds. Well, that's a delusion more than it is an intentional lie, you poor poor silly sentimental handwringing liberals. Islam is ideologically driven. Their hearts and minds belong to Islam. They would only pretend to go along with liberal making-nice in the effort to win their hearts and minds. YOUR hyearts and minds will be won to Islam long before theirs get past their practiced deception of the poor liberal who is trapped in his false worldview. You'll be under Sharia Law long before you've had any effect on them.
  • Um, Islam is THE most "discriminatory" ideology on the planet. They mistreat women, maiming them, and killing them if they "dishonor" their family; they mistreat anybody of a different religion, taxing them for the right to live in a Muslim country, shoving them off the sidewalk if they block the path of a Muislim; if they allow a nonMuslim even to BE in their country; or killing them because Allah wants them dead; and they refuse to assimilate to any nonMuslim country they live in. But the poor pathetic liberal aches to save them from the discrimination that might protect a nonMuslim from Allah's death squads.
It's the liberal mindset that promotes Islamic violence. And the more you keep it up the worse the violence will get while you get more and more placating and deluded that something other than Islamist ideology is the cause. By the time you wake up the death toll will be enormous and there won't be any more America or Europe. Or you won't wake up. You'll just be dead, or become Muslim, which is what they want anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 993 (798099)
01-30-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Modulous
01-30-2017 8:54 PM


I'm too tired to care what pernicious lies you are heaping on me in this weird post of yours. Maybe later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2017 8:54 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2017 1:02 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 993 (798104)
01-30-2017 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
01-30-2017 4:55 PM


* sigh *
U.S. judges in at least five states blocked federal authorities from enforcing President Donald Trump's executive order restricting immigration from seven Muslim-majority countries. However, lawyers representing people covered by the order said some authorities were unwilling on Sunday to follow the judges' rulings.
Sorry to bore you...
The stay specifically/explicitly talks about "removing" the person. I'm not sure if that is trying to cover detainment or not, but if not then you could go along with the executive order and admit people on a cases by case basis after you detain and interview them. That's what happened to the one petitioner, and then after he got in he praised America.
If the stay is percieved by some to mean don't even do that, and if some authorities have said no way to that in particular, then it could be spun into them being "unwilling to the following the ruling" even though they weren't actually breaking the ruling.
How many people with the legal right to be here have been removed since the stay? I suppose if authorities are still doing that under the direction of the President then that would technically be him breaking the law.
Is that what you were going for?
...
Also from the source of your quote:
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security on Sunday said it "will comply with judicial orders," while enforcing Trump's order in a manner that ensures those entering the United States "do not pose a threat to our country or the American people."
...
Burroughs' ruling appeared to go further than Donnelly's by barring the detention, as well as the removal, of approved refugees, visa holders and permanent U.S. residents entering from the seven countries. Donnelly's order forbade only removal.
...
White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said several times on NBC's "Meet the Press" that Trump's order does not affect green card holders "moving forward" or "going forward."
Did they get it figured out, or are the wrong people still being removed or detained?

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 73 of 993 (798107)
01-30-2017 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
01-30-2017 4:34 PM


quote:
I would agree that if you have the legal documentation to be here, say a Green Card, but are still technically an alien, then the Executive Order would allow you to be forbidden to enter upon arrival, and, that would be unfair because you technically should be allowed due process.
I would say that it is certainly morally dubious and almost certainly legally dubious to say that the Government can do whatever it likes to non-citizens. It would be a major flaw in the legal system if it were true.
Given that there was already enhanced scrutiny for people coming from the affected countries and in the absence of any threat that necessitated the immediate imposition of the ban it is hard to say that Trump's action is at all justified. Therefore I find it credible that Trump's precipitate action was, in fact, illegal.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 74 of 993 (798110)
01-31-2017 2:54 AM


One Of The Devils Best Tricks
One of Satans best tricks is making Christians appear to be bigoted, nationalistic, worshiping the false god of patriotism and nationalism, and hating their neighbor in order to preserve their material goods and way of life.
Indeed...come soon, Lord Jesus...and please don't give this nation the judgment it may deserve.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(4)
Message 75 of 993 (798111)
01-31-2017 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
01-31-2017 2:54 AM


Re: One Of The Devils Best Tricks
If there were a Satan, then one of his crowning achievements was clearly the horror inflicted on the Jewish people, and other persecuted people by the Nazis in the 1930s and 40s.
I visited the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin last year - a visit which everyone should make if they have the chance. It is the most profoundly moving experience, and brings a stunning mixture of anger, revulsion, despair, sadness - and also astonishment at the survival of a tiny core of humanity and strength in the face of an evil of unfathomable depth.
It shows you how the evil grew and was nurtured by ordinary people, gradually being carried into blackness by a populist regime, which promised what they wanted, but delivered the most disgusting suffering on innocent people, whom the populace had been taught to fear and hate.
The parallels have been pointed out many times before, but their starkness is very apparent if you have visited something like the memorial, and seen and heard and read.
If there is some hope that this can be avoided again, it's in the protests and the voices of those who reject any hint of this selfish evil, the shoots of which we are again beginning to see. There were fewer and far quieter voices in the 30s. We should keep shouting loud.
I'll leave the last word to Primo Levi, an Auschwitz survivor - I've quoted them before and I'm sure I will again:
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere."
Primo Levi Quotes (Author of Survival in Auschwitz)

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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