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Member (Idle past 7597 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Give your one best shot - against evolution | ||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Fred writes: You still misunderstand the model. The bits are the organism, the sequence of states within those bits is the expression of the organism within the environment, the coefficients are the genes which control the sequence of states, and the source of mutation of the coefficients is a random number generator. The coefficients, ie, the genes, control the next state of each bit, which is the expression of the organism within the environment, just as our own genes control the expression of ourselves in our own environments. The algorithm to determine the next state of each bit is simply a sum of terms where the terms are a function of the values of the coefficients. As I told you originally, it's basically a PLA with states, ie, a state machine. In case it helps, here's the link to the C++ program again: Ring Counter Evolution
You seem to be operating under some strange illusion that the scientific world is in alarm hoping for a solution to the seemingly intractable problem of how evolution could possibly happen when information theory says it's impossible. The reality is that the only people who think there's a problem are a few Christian evangelicals. One doesn't win a Nobel Prize for demonstrating the obvious.
You're still way out in left field with this intelligence business. First, to answer a related point you make, no, computers and spacecraft are not intelligent. Second, the transmission of information does not require an intelligent sender. When you look up at the stars there are no intelligent aliens out there sending the starlight, yet there's so much information in that light that we've been able to deduce the processes of the stellar furnace and the age of the universe. While it took intelligence to make sense of the information, it took no intelligence at all to either send or receive it. Shannon's model of transmitting information only requires a sender, a communications channel and a receiver, and as expressed in his paper these were automated, not intelligent, devices. You're only confusing yourself when you attempt to add value laden judgments like "utility" to information theory. A telegraph clerk during WWII receives a coded cipher from the underground, "The pebbles fall lightly," and he has no idea what it means. It is useless to him. Does that mean no information was transmitted? He brings the message to his superiors, who check their cipher books and learn that the message means to schedule a parachute drop of supplies that night. In your view no information was transmitted from the underground to the clerk, and not even from the clerk to his superiors since the clerk didn't understand the message, but only from the codebook to the clerk's superiors? Is this like the immaculate conception of information, where it suddenly springs forth from no source? Or is it the quantum uncertainty theory of information, where information isn't really information until someone who understands it examines it? I don't think so. You'll only be able to start making sense of information theory by removing from your perspective those elements which are value judgments, such as what is useful and what is intelligence. They play no role in information theory. Percy writes Fred replies: Fred, I don't know where you're picking up this strange interpretation, but of course I think information can be lost. Either you're trying to make some non-obvious point known only to yourself, or you're not paying attention. If it helps to get through this particular red herring of a point, simply eliminate a nucleotide, a gene, a chromosome, an organism which possesses the last existing copy of a particular allele. But this is irrelevant. The point being challenged is your assertion that information theory rules out the possibility of random mutation creating new genetic information. Of course mutation can create new information. What could possibly prevent it? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Hi Fred!
Sorry to split this into two replies, but another thought came to me about one point you made:
I don't know who Terra or the "Terra crowd" are, or who the evolutionists you're thinking of are, but this all seems like the most obvious quackery. We create computer models of natural processes all the time. We know DNA is the blueprint for the organism, we understand how reproduction works at a genetic level, we know reproductive errors of various sorts occur, yet you somehow think creating a model of this process is so incredibly difficult and thorny a problem that not only have others struggled with it and failed, but that a solution is worthy of a Nobel Prize? In reality, creating such a model is easy. It takes about an hour. Mine is a very simple model because it only addresses your specific point that random mutation cannot create new information. Creating such models only becomes rocket science to someone determined to believe the process being modeled is impossible. --Percy
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3843 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
[QUOTE][b]I don't know who Terra or the "Terra crowd" are, or who the evolutionists you're thinking of are, but this all seems like the most obvious quackery.[/QUOTE]
[/b] Terra is an artificial life simulation for PCs running (I think) Unix-derived OS's.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Thanks, Gene, found it. Terra Nornia is just one of many worlds created for the Creatures game, which apparently has versions 1, 2 and 3, and none of which I know anything about. If there's a "Terra Crowd" using the Creatures game to do serious modeling of mutation and natural selection I couldn't find it. This seems more like a game than a serious simulation to me, more on the order of Sims. The websites are full of pictures like this:
--Percy [This message has been edited by Percipient, 07-13-2002]
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3843 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
That's not the one. Terra was a frustrating and technical shareware program from, oh, circa 1995 I'd say.
I can't find any trace of it on the search engines. I do recall attempting to download and install it a few times.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Peter has opened a new thread for the information theory discussion:
Information and Genetics I suggest that the information theory topic be moved to that thread. --Percy
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derwood Member (Idle past 1896 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Well, lets hope so, as it was made in direct response to one of your 'challenges'.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1896 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: I will gladly scan and send you a copy of the paper, if you wish.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1896 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
I agree with everything edge wrote in reply to Fred's supposed response (re: tree rings and information... code.. copmplex information.. whatever Fred wants to call it to suit his immediate needs), so will not add anything else.
But as far as Dr.Tom Schneider goes, I do agree with his assessment of Fred's web site.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
I'm posting answers over at the Information and Genetics thread.
--Percy
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derwood Member (Idle past 1896 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Whatever... You may not want to be so quick to use Demski as a source on this. He is not. afterall, an information scientist. But more importantly, Godfrey-Smith demolishes Demski's claims - even their foundational assumptions.
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Fred,
Info & Genetic replies are over here now.
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=55&m=5#5 Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7597 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
quote: Sorry I didn't pick this one up sooner - I presume the software referrred to is actualy Tierra
http://www.isd.atr.co.jp/~ray/tierra/index.html Have fun with it ...
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derwood Member (Idle past 1896 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: BWAAAHHAAAA!!! Wow - don't know how I missed this one - Klassic Kretin Komedy at its most arrogant!
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