Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 162 (8127 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-01-2014 7:13 AM
75 online now:
PaulK, Percy (Admin), vimesey (3 members, 72 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Colbard
Upcoming Birthdays: Omnivorous
Post Volume:
Total: 735,079 Year: 20,920/28,606 Month: 7/1,410 Week: 25/275 Day: 7/18 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
891011
12
13Next
Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
edge
Member
Posts: 2510
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 166 of 187 (489104)
11-23-2008 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object
11-19-2008 4:02 PM


Re: Still no creationist explanation of fossilized marine life on mountaintops.
Then you are out of touch.

Out of touch with what?

How does anyone confirm the claim about yourself?

I will confirm.

By the way, Rox, I talked to our friend in Nevada last week.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-19-2008 4:02 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by roxrkool, posted 11-24-2008 12:34 PM edge has not yet responded

roxrkool
Member
Posts: 1489
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 167 of 187 (489168)
11-24-2008 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by edge
11-23-2008 11:21 AM


Re: Still no creationist explanation of fossilized marine life on mountaintops.
Please email me and let me know how he's doing!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by edge, posted 11-23-2008 11:21 AM edge has not yet responded

  
Architect-426
Member (Idle past 1036 days)
Posts: 76
From: NC, USA
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 168 of 187 (490054)
12-01-2008 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Coragyps
11-18-2008 5:19 PM


Re: PLATE TECTONICS FAILS PHYSICS 101 – NO ENERGY = NO MOUNTAIN!!!
Thanks for your reply. Nothing personal here…

quote:
And remember - that "V" is on the order of a centimeter per month in the fastest plates

And that amount of horizontal velocity creates enough energy to produce the sheer amount of mechanical work required to build mountains? No way, dynamically, physically, structurally and mathematically impossible. In the KE formula you’d round the velocity off to zero (because you really need m/s to calculate enough Joules produced, otherwise it’s negligible) and when you multiply out the equation, no matter how large or “small” the mountainous mass is, you get…….ZERO. Wow! I’ll be dad-gum! Zilch made a mountain!

It must be those cratons locking the continents in place.
____________________________________________________________________
General commentary to all who believe in Plate Tectonictism:

Plate tectonics utterly fails basic physics and deserves an F minus as a science. The “movement” is utterly and absolutely embarrassing and I can’t believe that the scientific community actually displays these negligible ‘global millimeter’ figures for everyone’s viewing (except perhaps for some comic relief) and claiming that terrestrial formations are due to “plate tectonic movement”.

Sorry to be the one to “break” the news to everyone, but it’s time to DITCH the PT theory in its entirety. I believe that the PT theory needs to be put in the Hall of Fame of good theories that just “didn’t plate out”. It has been taught, re-taught, published, preached, accepted and embraced by so many that they are unwilling to let go of it. It just ‘sounds’ too good.

This is a perfect example of how science can go down a wrong path for so long and simply be “blinded” by its own theories, and thus lack in progressive thinking. Ouch. The same goes for the geologic time column that spirals down to nowhere, which was first implemented by scientists that were absolutely dumbfounded by those pesky fossilized marine critters scattered all over creation by the utter destruction of the earth via volcanic mechanisms released during the Great Flood.

Plate Tectonics cannot be credited as real science due to the fact that it is plagued with “structural” problems that scientists cannot answer, but instead must come up with more science fiction to help “fill in those gaping holes” and then sprinkle in a “few more millions” just in case. If anyone was taught this nonsense in college I’d ask the professor (and get my money back) exactly how this amount of “movement” made all the “mess” on the earth and to explain why it defies basic physic calculations. He might say “this is not the physics department, this is a science-phyction class….”

Next time I’m on a construction jobsite, I’ll go up to the dozer operator and say “listen here Billy, see that big mountain over yonder? Plate tectonics built that at a whopping speed of .00000007mph. Now we don’t wanna make too big of a mess here, so keep your dozer down below that speed, all righty?” and he’ll look at me and say “what are you talkin’ about? The Bible says God destroyed the earth and all land creatures including people during the Great Flood. That mountain and all of the rest of them are a standing testament the fact that He really did it. Now if you’ll excuse me Mr. Arch, I’ve got some real work to do…..”

My earlier statement stands that mountains are a result of volcanism. No, not all mountains are a ‘volcano’ of course. It takes heat, water and pressure to build a mountain. And this force is delivered to the crust from deep within via volcanism. Furthermore, it’s NOT a theory. The phenomena is real, observable, and can even be quantified and tested and I have already laid out a plethora of scientific information on the phenomena and the fact of deep abyssal waters certainly exist. When these waters erupted all over the earth, thus creating many hydrovolcanic, phreatomagmatic, plinian and surtsean FOUNTAINS, then the earth was totally obliterated and subsequently flooded.

God meant serious business when he told Noah to prepare. I recommend everyone to go to Yellowstone and contemplate all the heat below your feet turning thermal energy into mechanical energy and thus causing all the juvenile and ground water to burst open. Yellowstone is simply just one of the volcanic wrecks left over from the Flood.

What built mountains, fossilized marine creatures and thrust them up high? Plate Tectonics?? Nope, no movement, no energy. Volcanism??? Yes, plenty of movement and plenty of energy. Not only does volcanism build mountains, it razes them!

Plate tectonic movement ---> .25” per year (give or take a smidge) ---> file 13

It’s time to move on folks. I’m not alone on this of course:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/lowman.htm
http://www.newgeology.us/presentation21.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v16/i1/plate_tectonics2.asp
This scientist calls it “junk science”. I agree, but not with the "growing earth."
http://users.indigo.net.au/don/nonsense/movass.html
http://www.nealadams.com/challenge.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Coragyps, posted 11-18-2008 5:19 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Coyote, posted 12-02-2008 12:01 AM Architect-426 has not yet responded
 Message 170 by subbie, posted 12-02-2008 12:13 AM Architect-426 has not yet responded
 Message 171 by obvious Child, posted 12-02-2008 2:58 AM Architect-426 has not yet responded
 Message 172 by cavediver, posted 12-02-2008 3:55 AM Architect-426 has not yet responded
 Message 173 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2008 8:15 AM Architect-426 has not yet responded
 Message 175 by Jazzns, posted 12-02-2008 12:05 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 4677
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 169 of 187 (490056)
12-02-2008 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Architect-426
12-01-2008 11:53 PM


Re: PLATE TECTONICS FAILS PHYSICS 101 – NO ENERGY = NO MOUNTAIN!!!
And that amount of horizontal velocity creates enough energy to produce the sheer amount of mechanical work required to build mountains? No way, dynamically, physically, structurally and mathematically impossible.

Are you forgetting the mass involved?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Architect-426, posted 12-01-2008 11:53 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

subbie
Member
Posts: 3348
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 170 of 187 (490057)
12-02-2008 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Architect-426
12-01-2008 11:53 PM


Re: PLATE TECTONICS FAILS PHYSICS 101 – NO ENERGY = NO MOUNTAIN!!!
quote:
In the KE formula you’d round the velocity off to zero

If this is an example of how you reason, I would appreciate it very much if you'd post a list of all buildings the construction of which you've been involved in. Seriously. Give me an opportunity to stay away from them. Please?


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Architect-426, posted 12-01-2008 11:53 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

obvious Child
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 171 of 187 (490064)
12-02-2008 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Architect-426
12-01-2008 11:53 PM


Re: PLATE TECTONICS FAILS PHYSICS 101 – NO ENERGY = NO MOUNTAIN!!!
Anyone who rejects the notion of plate tectonics merely needs to look at the videos of the 1989 San Fransisco Earthquake. Or visit the Hawaiian Islands. Furthermore, the idea that plates can't build mountains is rather silly. Want to know one of the largest mountain chains on the planet?

Explain to me how Noah survived the massive heat released from trillions of cubic meters of superheated water.

Hint: it's at the bottom of the ocean between two plates

Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Architect-426, posted 12-01-2008 11:53 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 57 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 172 of 187 (490068)
12-02-2008 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Architect-426
12-01-2008 11:53 PM


Re: PLATE TECTONICS FAILS PHYSICS 101 – NO ENERGY = NO MOUNTAIN!!!
In the KE formula you’d round the velocity off to zero (because you really need m/s to calculate enough Joules produced, otherwise it’s negligible) and when you multiply out the equation, no matter how large or “small” the mountainous mass is, you get…….ZERO.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

FFS, it's like carnival of the idiots. I do not expect everyone to have knowledge of basic physics and mathematics. In fact, I only expect some small percentage of the population to have even the rudiments of physics and mathematics. But I do expect that when someone CLAIMS to have such knowledge, and attempts to use it in a public forum to demonstrate that they are correct, that they don't end up performing the scientific equivalent of a very public loss of bladder control.

Here's a hint - when you've learnt to count beyond five, come back and try again...

ABE: Should add something technical for everyone else:

KE has little to do with this. The plate is not in free motion. It is being constantly driven by the mantle and by gravity, and is continually losing energy to massive friction and deformation. Without the driving mechanisms, the plate would halt practically instantly. It is the rate of energy transfer, or power, that is relevant. The actual instantaneous KE of a plate is not large by any means, because of the v2 term, and is measured in a mere several KJ. But if this is being transferred many times a second, then it is more than sufficient. A quick back-of-the-envelope calc shows me that the entire Himalayas gains on the order of 10KJ every second because of its uplift. It appears then that the Indian Plate's motion is about perfect to create this uplift. What a suprise...

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Edited by cavediver, : Because AdminNosy asked nicely...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Architect-426, posted 12-01-2008 11:53 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by AdminNosy, posted 12-02-2008 8:41 AM cavediver has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 15828
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 173 of 187 (490089)
12-02-2008 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Architect-426
12-01-2008 11:53 PM


Small is not negligable
Thanks ARCHITECT-426,

And that amount of horizontal velocity creates enough energy to produce the sheer amount of mechanical work required to build mountains? No way, dynamically, physically, structurally and mathematically impossible. In the KE formula you’d round the velocity off to zero (because you really need m/s to calculate enough Joules produced, otherwise it’s negligible) and ...

Perhaps you've heard the story of the person on a diet who baked a tray of brownies, then cut the brownies into small enough pieces that you could round the calories off to zero, and then proceeded to eat the whole tray.

The effect is accumulative.

The “movement” is utterly and absolutely embarrassing and I can’t believe that the scientific community actually displays these negligible ‘global millimeter’ figures for everyone’s viewing (except perhaps for some comic relief) and claiming that terrestrial formations are due to “plate tectonic movement”.

Now calculate the inertia of the mass moving at that speed.

Sorry to be the one to “break” the news to everyone, ...

Curiously, nature is completely unimpressed by your opinion. Scientist study what nature does, rather than calculate formulas to attempt to show that something cannot happen.

Surely you must know that if the mathematical model is wrong that the result is questionable at best, disastrously wrong at worst (how many structural designs have failed because the mathematics was wrong? Or are you one of those architects that ignore structure and let the engineers fix your design so that it works?)

Any mathematical "proof" that something can't happen, when we have evidence of it happening, just shows that the math is wrong.

Perhaps you have heard about the old story of an aeronautical engineer that calculated that a bumblebee cannot fly?

It’s time to move on folks. I’m not alone on this of course:

Yes there are a lot of ignorant people on this planet. People who don't know squat about geology, yet feel capable of making statements about it.

Next time I’m on a construction jobsite, I’ll go up to the dozer operator and say “listen here Billy, see that big mountain over yonder? Plate tectonics built that at a whopping speed of .00000007mph. Now we don’t wanna make too big of a mess here, so keep your dozer down below that speed, all righty?” and he’ll look at me and say “what are you talkin’ about? The Bible says God destroyed the earth and all land creatures including people during the Great Flood. That mountain and all of the rest of them are a standing testament the fact that He really did it. Now if you’ll excuse me Mr. Arch, I’ve got some real work to do…..”

Of course if your bulldozer blade was as wide as a continent you would find it difficult to move dirt at even that speed with the same amount of energy. You have ignored the scale of the movement as well as the mass.\\

What built mountains, fossilized marine creatures and thrust them up high? Plate Tectonics?? Nope, no movement, no energy. Volcanism??? Yes, plenty of movement and plenty of energy. Not only does volcanism build mountains, it razes them!

And curiously we still have no explanation for the many ordered layers of marine fossils on mountaintops, sorted by fossil types and layered with evidence of undisturbed mature marine growth.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Architect-426, posted 12-01-2008 11:53 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4742
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 174 of 187 (490096)
12-02-2008 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by cavediver
12-02-2008 3:55 AM


Another Excellent Post, CaveDiver but ...
You could do with editing out the one unnecessary word. (Unnecessary in more than one way :) )
This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by cavediver, posted 12-02-2008 3:55 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 175 of 187 (490104)
12-02-2008 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Architect-426
12-01-2008 11:53 PM


Crank support even worse than YECs
http://www.nealadams.com/challenge.html

LOL. You cite as support the comic book artist who created Batman and X-men?

This guy is legitimatly insane. He believes the earth is hollow and expanding like a balloon. In order to make all that work "scientifically" you have to believe that all existing scientific theories are wrong.

He actually says this.

Seriously...

He is a total crank. If anyone wants to hear an interesting interview with this guy. Check out this podcast.

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/skepticsguide/podcastinfo.asp?pid=51

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Architect-426, posted 12-01-2008 11:53 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 12-02-2008 12:48 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
 Message 177 by obvious Child, posted 12-02-2008 3:31 PM Jazzns has responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 13118
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 176 of 187 (490108)
12-02-2008 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Jazzns
12-02-2008 12:05 PM


Re: Crank support even worse than YECs
Jazzns writes:

e is a total crank. If anyone wants to hear an interesting interview with this guy. Check out this podcast.

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/skepticsguide/podcastinfo.asp?pid=51

Definitely listen to this podcast interview with Neal Adams of X-Men comic book fame. The guy is certifiable.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Jazzns, posted 12-02-2008 12:05 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by kuresu, posted 12-02-2008 5:47 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 177 of 187 (490130)
12-02-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Jazzns
12-02-2008 12:05 PM


Re: Crank support even worse than YECs
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't we SEEN subduction in action via submersibles?

I mean, it takes a crank to deny subduction when we have videos of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Jazzns, posted 12-02-2008 12:05 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Jazzns, posted 12-02-2008 4:09 PM obvious Child has responded
 Message 179 by NosyNed, posted 12-02-2008 4:20 PM obvious Child has not yet responded

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 178 of 187 (490135)
12-02-2008 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by obvious Child
12-02-2008 3:31 PM


Re: Crank support even worse than YECs
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't we SEEN subduction in action via submersibles?

I would be quite shocked if this was something we could observe in "live" action in the same way that we don't ever really observe plates moving in that way. It just plain happens too slowly.

We can measure things over semi-longer periods of time though such as the elevation of the Rockies and Everest and the distance of the plates with respect to each other. Plotted over time you get your movement.

But there is also lots of historical evidence for plate tectonics which I might call the "primary" evidence. Bio-geography, fossils, shared geology across the Atlantic, etc were things we discovered that led to plate tectonic theory long before we had the tools to actually "see" the continents moving.

I mean, it takes a crank to deny subduction when we have videos of it.

Neil Adams is the kind of crank that makes you regret throwing the word "crank" around too much to describe other people. I think the biggest part of it has to be that it is pretty obvious that this guy actually believes his nonsense. Neil Adams literally is one very fragile thread away from being on the same level as www.timecube.com. He makes creationists seem quite reasonable by comparison.

I would highly recommend listening to the podcast. Not only is it a great podcast in general, this interview with Adams is one of the most entertaining interviews the SGU has done.

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by obvious Child, posted 12-02-2008 3:31 PM obvious Child has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by obvious Child, posted 12-02-2008 5:30 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
 Message 182 by anglagard, posted 12-02-2008 6:37 PM Jazzns has responded

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8586
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 179 of 187 (490137)
12-02-2008 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by obvious Child
12-02-2008 3:31 PM


Observations
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't we SEEN subduction in action via submersibles?

I think you are thinking of the pillow lava forming on the spot at mid ocean ridges. This is certainly part of it but it's not exactly "seeing" it like we see a hurricane pass by.

However the existence of older and older pillow lavas farther and farther from the ridge is an observation and we observe mountains raising as noted above. We observe many things including the actual increase in distance between North America and Europe all of which are "seeing" plate tectonics in action.

This is yet another example where someone is incapable of holding more than one thought in their head at a time and so can't grasp the big picture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by obvious Child, posted 12-02-2008 3:31 PM obvious Child has not yet responded

obvious Child
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 180 of 187 (490143)
12-02-2008 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Jazzns
12-02-2008 4:09 PM


Re: Crank support even worse than YECs
Or am I thinking of video of divergent? I know we have video of one along the ocean floor.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Jazzns, posted 12-02-2008 4:09 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

RewPrev1
...
891011
12
13Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2014 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2014