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Author
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Topic: Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 61 of 182 (82629)
02-03-2004 2:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
02-03-2004 10:38 AM
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The following quotes are all from the Gospels and all attributed to Jesus. That's a greater restriction than your "fair and balanced" book uses. The question is, od these quotes as presented here give a fair and balanced impression of Christianity ? I'll let you know right now that I think that the answer is "no". so don't waste your time attacking the individual quotes. He insisted that his disciples should arm themselves "...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36) He intended to bring strife to Judaea "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34 He encouraged his followers to see martyrdom "....he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 He insisted that all who did not follow him were his enemies "He that is not with me is against me..." Matthew 12:30 He even incited his followers to murder those who did not follow him "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27 Some Christians will try to deceive you stating that this verse is part of apparable. But if you read it you will see that all the speech in the Parable is attributed to one or another character in the story. But Luke 19:26 starts instead "For I say unto you,...". Luke 19:26-7 is Jesus speaking for himself.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 10:38 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 7:55 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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Angeldust
Inactive Member
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Message 62 of 182 (82728)
02-03-2004 4:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
02-02-2004 11:40 PM
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It's not always about money.......
You're right, Buz. Talk is cheap. So why do you still own a computer? Why do you still waste your time here? Why do you sit comfortable, in America, when folks in Africa are starving? Oh, I'm sure you salve your concience with some tax-deductable donations, but is that really following Christ's example? Okay, so I'm not buzz, but that's never stopped me from getting involved before.... I'm sure you know the story of the young rich ruler and how Christ told him that he needed to sell everything and follow him. He couldn't do it and went away. It's not about money, or possessions or about anything else external. The whole point is that he couldn't do it. His riches meant too much to him. That's what it's about. It comes back to the "You shall have no other God's before me." That money meant more to him then following God did. That's an idol. If Jesus had held onto possessions it would have hindered his earthly ministry, that's why he didn't. Strangely enough, for many people the opposite is true. If there we're no Christians that had money, who would support those going to the other side of the world to minister to the poor? If there were no Christians with money, who would minister to the wealthy? If there were none who took the time and expense to become educated who would minister to the educated? We live in a world that puts a lot of value on position, on education, and on money. God calls each person to a specific place for a specific reason. The thing about true Christians with money is that the moment God asked them to give it up, they would. Without question. Quite often God asks you if you will give something up, just to remind you to keep you heart in check. Remember that He is first place. In many ways I would prefer to be on the other side of the world. To live in a place where Christianity actually means something to the Christians. Where they truly understand the urgency of it. Instead of sitting in North America where the church is full of people who go because it looks good and not because of God at all. Instead of sitting where the majority of Christians are luke warm about their faith because we are comfortable and lazy. I'm not trying to minimize their suffering, but they understand faith. For that I envy their position. The MINUTE God says go, I'm there. Instead right now he has me spending thousands of dollars to get a degree. Why? I don't have a clue yet. Maybe someday, he'll let me go. Maybe he wants me here. The main point of Jesus ministry wasn't that he didn't seek riches, or that he spoke of love. The main point of Jesus' ministry was his obedience to his Father, without that NOTHING that he did would have mattered. The call of each individual is different. We are uniquely created to do a specific task, to have a specific path laid out for us. If I went to Africa to work in an AIDS hospital, or whereever else, I would be in sin because he told me to stay here. What your saying is one of the greatest sources of condemnation for truly committed Christians in North America. I decided a long time ago that I will not feel condemned for staying where I know God wants me. Someone has to stay and minister to the ones in North America who are rich and say they have need of nothing. In some ways, my missionary friends say, staying here is harder.
"The life I preach I do not live...I follow at a distance crawling" - unknown
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 02-02-2004 11:40 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 63 of 182 (82819)
02-03-2004 7:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 62 by Angeldust
02-03-2004 4:50 PM
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In some ways, my missionary friends say, staying here is harder. No offense but this comes off as a little self-indulgent. (Actually more than a little.) I'm about two keystrokes away from a very sarcastic response, which I have withheld because I don't like to hurt people who aren't themselves malicious. Nonetheless I suggest you look into how people live in Africa and other parts of the world before you complain about how hard it is to minister to the richest, fattest, most comfortable people on the planet.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by Angeldust, posted 02-03-2004 4:50 PM | | Angeldust has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by Angeldust, posted 02-03-2004 9:17 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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Gilgamesh
Inactive Member
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Message 64 of 182 (82820)
02-03-2004 7:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 62 by Angeldust
02-03-2004 4:50 PM
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Re: It's not always about money.......
I've never bought the idea that there is any particularly altruism on behalf of Christian missionaries or aid workers. If they could do so without promulgating their beliefs, that would be a different matter. Instead it is just an opportunity to spread their beliefs on the vulnerable and uneducated (Christianity is only growing in third world countries). History has shown that such "altruism" has caused the annihilation of various cultures and races. The real objective of the individuals involved is to re-enforce and validate one's own beliefs by converting others, and score physiological brownie points with their "God" and fellow believers. I find it intriguing that you decide your life path on what God "tells" you. You either hear God personally or you take direction from someone who claims they hear from God. People who claim that they "hear" God's word are very dangerous individuals indeed. The rest of us observe that they are merely acting upon suggestions from their own sub-conscious. If people do receive messages from one God (and not their own sub-conscious), why do so many Christians get contrary messages (particularly about scriptural interpretation)? How is this communicative relationship with a personal God verified? How does it differ from this scenario: I have a personal pink pixie. Only I can see it and hear it, although others can have a pixie of their own, merely by believing. It helps to regularly associate with other people who believe in personal pixie's and to sing praises to the pixie. I communicate to the pixie through babble speak, or glossolalia, which only it understands. Everything good that happens in my life is due to may magical pink pixie's influence (and I have experienced much good). Every time I narrowly avoid something bad happening, the pixie saved me. If something bad does happen in my life it is because my pixie is either testing me or because the pixie moves in mysterious ways, and this is never evidence that the pink pixie doesn't exist or assist me in my life. I cannot just sit back in life and expect the pixie to provide, because the pixie helps those who help themselves. If I work harder, the pixie rewards me more. The pixie heals me. I have been badly injured through sports many times and my rapid recovery (faster than the doctors predicted) is due to the pixie healing me. The pixie even heals me of common colds (in about a week) and sometimes stops me getting a cold from someone close to me. I have been diagnosed with serious conditions twice, but the pixie completely healed me without medical intervention (they weren't misdiagnosis at all). You can have a personal pink pixie too. You merely have to believe. Fellowship in a Fundie Christian church is all about mentally reinforcing an imaginary scenario.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by Angeldust, posted 02-03-2004 4:50 PM | | Angeldust has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 65 of 182 (82833)
02-03-2004 7:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 61 by PaulK
02-03-2004 2:19 PM
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The following quotes are all from the Gospels and all attributed to Jesus. That's a greater restriction than your "fair and balanced" book uses. The question is, od these quotes as presented here give a fair and balanced impression of Christianity ? I'll let you know right now that I think that the answer is "no". so don't waste your time attacking the individual quotes. He insisted that his disciples should arm themselves
"...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke 22:36) This was in no way intended for them to offensively harm anyone. It was likely for their protection in their travels in the countryside against wild animals or thieves, etc who might attack them. To believe otherwise would contradict other statments he had made.
He intended to bring strife to Judaea "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34 Please read the context. All he's saying here is that his gospel will be offensive to many who will hate and kill his followers. He is the "prince of peace" in that he would evetually bring his kingdom of warless peace to the earth. History attests to the fact that the sword will be used against the true followers of his who will suffer martyrdom as he and most of his apostles were.
He encouraged his followers to see martyrdom
"....he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39
But unlike the Muslim martyr/murderers his followers would suffer persecution/martyrdom from many but would harm no one.
He insisted that all who did not follow him were his enemies
"He that is not with me is against me..." Matthew 12:30 So what does that prove. Certainly he had enemies. That doesn't mean he fights them, which he didn't. That time when he goes against his enemies is for another age when he emerges as king of kings.
He even incited his followers to murder those who did not follow him
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27 Again, read the context from beginning to end. He tells the story/fictional parable of a certain nobleman and the above are clearly still the words of the nobleman. Note that the nobleman was to receive a kingdom and the ones to be slain are the ones who would refuse to have him reign over him. In verse 26 and 27 the nobleman is being quoted. It in no way was intended to incite Jesus's followers to murder. No dice for your argument.
I'll let you know right now that I think that the answer is "no". so don't waste your time attacking the individual quotes. S'matter Paul, you afraid I would soundly refute them? Well, lol. That I did. 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2004 2:19 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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Angeldust
Inactive Member
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Message 66 of 182 (82858)
02-03-2004 9:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by crashfrog
02-03-2004 7:42 PM
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I meant specifically on a Spiritual Level, not a physical one, I did not mean that how it came across, my apologies.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2004 7:42 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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docpotato
Member (Idle past 5068 days) Posts: 334 From: Portland, OR Joined: 07-18-2003
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Message 67 of 182 (82873)
02-03-2004 9:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
02-03-2004 7:55 PM
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Buzz, Surely you see that the point of paul's post was not to baffle you with some sort-of bible quote quiz but to show you how quotes from a spiritual leader can be taken out of context to produce an image of that leader that is untrue? Especially when he blatantly said that he did not agree with the very image he was painting! Now that you've seen this, you will most certainly find out the true context for the quotes you've posted already in this thread, won't you?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 7:55 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 11:51 PM | | docpotato has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 68 of 182 (82910)
02-03-2004 11:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by docpotato
02-03-2004 9:54 PM
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Doc, from how I read Paul is that the purpose of the quotes was to show Christianity to be unfairly balanced and Jesus to be contradictory in his statements. His strategy appears to me to be to extract sentences or phrases out of their context to suit his purpose in order to discredit Jesus and the Bible and to refute my allegations that Christians are never instructed to persecute or kill, unlike what is taught in the Quran and the Hadiths as well as what was practiced by their prophet.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by docpotato, posted 02-03-2004 9:54 PM | | docpotato has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 70 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2004 3:02 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 69 of 182 (82941)
02-04-2004 2:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Buzsaw
02-03-2004 7:55 PM
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I specifically told you not to bother with attacking the actual quotes since my whole point was that you CANNOT ensure a fair an balanced approach just by quoting acccepted authorities of an opposing side. I specifically stated that I did NOT consider it to be "fair and balanced". And the reason I said those things was so there would be no room for a genuine misunderstanding. So evasive resposnes could be clearly seen and noted. And you evaded the point anyway. And you didn't even do a good job with that. You didn't check Luke 22:36 in context. You've made it quite clear that you would reject readings similar to the one you put forward for Matthew 10:34. You use Matthew 10:39 to make an unsupported attack against Islam. You completely ignore the fact that Matthew 12:30 explicitly identifies everyone not on Jesus side as an enemy (including those who are not hostile but simply disagree) and your answer to Luke 19:27 was refuted in the post you are replying to ! So no, I wasn't afraid that you would refute them - and you didn't. I WAS afraid that you would attack the quotes as a way of evading the real point - and you did.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 7:55 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 70 of 182 (83051)
02-04-2004 3:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by Buzsaw
02-03-2004 11:51 PM
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You were given Xian quotes that people could use wrongly. You said that doing so was wrong. Yet earlier you were given an Islamic quote, and then proceeded to use sources that quoted wrongly OTHER parts of the Quran, as some sort of refutation. Let us go to the Quran and see what it says about how to handle nonbelievers, including the small portion YOU took out of context in rebuttal, and then I would like to hear you explain how the message in the Quran should be taken differently than it is plainly written... 1) FIGHTING SHOULD NOT BE STARTED BY MUSLIMS, AND PEACE ALLOWED FOR THOSE WHO DESIST (except the initial oppressors):
quote:
002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities (also translated as do not exceed limits). Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
quote:
008.019 If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance).
quote:
008.061 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
2) THE FULL SECTION FROM WHICH YOU TOOK A PIECE OUT OF CONTEXT (showing that in context it is not for a global assault on pagans, and rather quite specific, particularly the ones who assaulted him first in the Holy Land):
quote:
009.001 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
009.002 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
009.003 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
009.004 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
+++ Your excerpt+++ 009.005 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
009.006 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
009.007 How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
009.008 How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
009.009 They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.
009.010 And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
009.011 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
009.012 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
009.013 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers
(Wow, in context that little piece you quoted just doesn't look the same does it?) 3) HOW MUSLIMS SHOULD TREAT THOSE OF OTHER FAITHS (who do not attack them first):
quote:
002.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
quote:
109.001 Say: O unbelievers!
109.002 I do not serve that which you serve,
109.003 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
109.004 Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
109.005 Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
109.006 You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
Please post the contrasting Quran passages Buz, particularly to this last section, which you say you are familiar with. [This message has been edited by holmes, 02-04-2004]
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 11:51 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 71 of 182 (83054)
02-04-2004 3:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Silent H
02-04-2004 3:02 PM
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Religion too?
Is it possible that Buz, who has shown a rather weak grasp of science also has an equally weak grasp of comparative theology?
Common sense isn't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2004 3:02 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2004 3:29 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 72 of 182 (83059)
02-04-2004 3:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 71 by NosyNed
02-04-2004 3:11 PM
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Re: Religion too?
In a strange way I am kind of thankful for his ignorance. I was just being lazy in not hitting the books to directly refute him using the Quran, but he got my dander up so I felt it was time. In going back through the Quran, I was reminded what an interesting faith it is. There is so much about caring for others, especially strangers, and not taking advantage of others... Oh yeah, and allowing others to have their faith besides Islam. Kind of refreshing after so much rummaging through the OT and NT for quotes.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by NosyNed, posted 02-04-2004 3:11 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 73 of 182 (83167)
02-04-2004 8:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Silent H
02-04-2004 3:02 PM
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Let us go to the Quran and see what it says about how to handle nonbelievers, including the small portion YOU took out of context in rebuttal, and then I would like to hear you explain how the message in the Quran should be taken differently than it is plainly written... 1) FIGHTING SHOULD NOT BE STARTED BY MUSLIMS, AND PEACE ALLOWED FOR THOSE WHO DESIST (except the initial oppressors): Better read more carefully.
002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities (also translated as do not exceed limits). Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. 002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 008.019 If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 008.061 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) THE FULL SECTION FROM WHICH YOU TOOK A PIECE OUT OF CONTEXT (showing that in context it is not for a global assault on pagans, and rather quite specific, particularly the ones who assaulted him first in the Holy Land): quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 009.001 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. 009.002 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). 009.003 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, 009.004 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). +++ Your excerpt+++ 009.005 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 009.006 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. 009.007 How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty. 009.008 How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers. 009.009 They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do. 009.010 And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors. 009.011 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. 009.012 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist. 009.013 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers (Wow, in context that little piece you quoted just doesn't look the same does it?) Let's let Muslim scholars dedide for us on that. After all, isn't that the fair and unbiased way to decide, Holmes?
Pertaining to the Infidels "But when the sacred months elapse, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them and seize them, besiege them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent and establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Surah 9:5). How did muslim scholars and chroniclers interpret this verse in order to understand what Muhammad did after the conquest of Mecca and its occupation? The Jalalan In this commentary, which was published by the Azhar in 1983 (page 153), the authors say decisively, "The chapter of Repentance was revealed to raise the level of security which the infidels enjoyed because Muhammad had earlier made a covenant with them not to kill them. After that, this verse was given (9:5) in order to free God and Muhammad from any covenant with the infidels. It gives them four months in which they will be protected, but by the end of the four months (the end of the grace period), the order comes: Kill the infidels wherever you find them. Capture them, besiege them in their castles and fortresses until they are forced to accept Islam or be killed." As you see, this verse was inspired in order to free Muhammad (and God) from any peaceful and protective covenant which Muhammad made with the people of Mecca, as if the covenant were shameful behavior from which Muhammad (and his God) must free themselves. Nothing remains after that, except the pledge of war and massacre, as Ibn Hisham says later. I found this link on google. In fact this whole link should be read by any who wants to know the truth FROM MUSLIM SCHOLARS as to the offensive war of Islam. This link has been, in fact, taken from the book, "BEHIND THE VEIL" which I have and have alluded to. I didn't realize that this segment of it was in fact available on line. I invite any who wish to comment on any part of this link to do so.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2004 3:02 PM | | Silent H has replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 74 of 182 (83216)
02-05-2004 12:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
02-04-2004 8:35 PM
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See, now I showed you quotes directly from the Quran (which the majority of peace loving muslims explain is the real Islam) and asked you to show me passages from the Quran which (when not taken out of context) conflict with these messages of tolerance for other religions. This is what I get...
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Let's let Muslim scholars dedide for us on that. After all, isn't that the fair and unbiased way to decide, Holmes?
How could that be fair when the only "scholars" you choose to focus on are the militant one's perverting Islam for their own agenda? Without question there are people who rationalize and take quotes out of context in order to push their powerhungry militaristic agenda. When the people who do this are Xian, you say they are not Xian. But when they are Islamic, you say we have to listen to them because they are Muslim scholars???? The point I was trying to make is that in the Quran there are clear statements regarding tolerance of other religions, and these are not contradicted anywhere else in the Quran. Your quotes said nothing different, and underscored my own argument. I don't like the fanatical militant version of Islam which has taken hold throughout the MidEast, and the way their militant "scholars" twist commands for tolerance into one for war. This would be the same way that YOU and I might be offended by those Xian militant "scholars" doing the same to Xianity. How about the large number of Muslims that follow the Quran directly and do NOT listen to the militarized version fostered by those people you quote? Please find something in the QURAN to refute the passages I gave, not statements by people that if they were Xian you would call nonXian. BTW I notice you did not address the final section of my post which clearly shows that the QURAN calls for Muslims to accept the existence of other religions. Remember? You have yours, I have mine... AND THAT'S FINE??? Why are we to believe there can be no real Muslims which believe in the Quran?
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2004 8:35 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2004 12:48 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 75 of 182 (83220)
02-05-2004 12:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
02-04-2004 8:35 PM
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Oh yeah, and as far as this "scholar's" interpretation...
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As you see, this verse was inspired in order to free Muhammad (and God) from any peaceful and protective covenant which Muhammad made with the people of Mecca, as if the covenant were shameful behavior from which Muhammad (and his God) must free themselves. Nothing remains after that, except the pledge of war and massacre, as Ibn Hisham says later.
Take a look at the whole passage and in context. The point of the passage is that he was attacked first and forced out... He was oppressed. Thus this section was dealing with how he was to deal with those that had already oppressed him IN THAT AREA! It is not talking about Pagans anywhere and everywhere. You can see this talked about in all of the other passages which I gave you... and you apparently ignore in order to focus on this ONE PASSAGE. (Like the whole religion hangs on that one piece regarding a specific time and place?). And even with those that were pagan then as long as they did not attack and acted in charity and at least listened to his words, then they would be given safe passage out (check out 009.006). A bit condescending I suppose, but it's not the call to global control you made it out to be.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2004 8:35 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2004 1:11 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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