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Junior Member (Idle past 3494 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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jar writes: I assume those are the context you are using? Yes, exactly.
So under those contexts is a flower garden natural or artificial or supernatural? Well, that would entirely depend upon whether or not it's man-made without breaking a law of nature, developed on it's own without human intervention, or if someone broke a law of nature while creating it.
A Flower garden certainly goes against natural processes Which natural processes does it certainly go against?If someone put it together... then yes, of course it does, that would be human intervention. But if it came about on it's own (flowers just happen to be growing in an area)... then no, it doesn't. we even find them in temperature controlled conservatories against the cold of nature Is the temperature controlled by human intervention and the technology of a thermostat?If so, then the environment would be artificial. blooms forced instead of occurring naturally Are they forced by means of human intervention while not breaking any laws of nature?If so, then the blooms are being artificially forced. Are they forced by means of human intervention while breaking a law of nature?If so, then the blooms are being supernaturally forced. I can see it fitting under all three categories. Of course. Science is all about the details. Determine the details and you'll find your answers.
We can make up lots of stuff like lakes of wine but would that be evidence of the supernatural? Again, it depends: Did the lakes of wine come about all on their own with no human intervention?(Say, a strange new event that didn't require intelligent intervention in any way that we didn't know about before) If so, then the lakes of wine would be natural. Did the lakes of wine come about by human intervention but no laws of nature were broken?(Say, men created a dam, drained the water from the resulting lake and then filled the lake up with wine) If so, then the lakes of wine would be artificial. Did the lakes of wine come about by human intervention and a law of nature was broken?(Say, a wizard destoryed all the water matter and created all the wine matter) If so, then the lakes of wine would be supernatural. It's not intended to be tricky or difficult.
Would regrowing limbs be supernatural? Again, it depends. Does the limb regrowth occur without human intervention?Then natural. Does the limb regrowth require human intervention but doesn't break any natural laws (ex. the creation/destruction of matter)?Then artificial. Does the limb regrowth require human intervention but does break natural laws (ex. the creation/destruction of matter)?Then supernatural. Hopefully the template is starting to show itself.
The issue is that unless someone can present some way to distinguish between the lights going out because someone threw a switch and the lights going out because some supernatural entity said "Let there be dark." and the lights going out because some supernatural entity caused someone to throw a switch, it seems pointless to call something, anything, supernatural. Here you go:
How to distinguish natural: No intelligent intervention of any kind.How to distinguish artificial: Intelligent intervention, but no laws of nature were broken. How to distinguish supernatural: Intelligent intervention, and at least one law of nature was broken. Now, as I have said repeatedly I have no problem if someone believes the lake turning to wine is supernatural, but to say "That is supernatural" is I believe, pointless and uncalled for. That is only true if you refuse to acknowledge the clear, english, straight-forward, reasonable context I've provided.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Not only do I refuse to acknowledge "the clear, english, straight-forward, reasonable context I've provide", I fart in your general direction.
Edited by jar, : kinda fix punctuation.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jon Inactive Member |
The problem is not that such claims cannot be tested. The problem for supernaturalists is that their claims have persistently been found to be false. I didn't ask about testing. I asked about distinguishing.
A testable claim derived from divine revelation, communicating with GOD or whatever would be a supernatural hypothesis. How are these methods different than the methods used for natural phenomena? What makes communicating with GOD different than communicating with Kubo the jungle savage? And, again, just what is a supernatural hypothesis?Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
You're just equivocating again. It is clear to everyone else what is meant by "natural" in this discussion. "Supernatural" is not used in the same context as "artificial". Love your enemies!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8558 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
If a Christian 'healer' walked up to a congenitally armless man, touched him and two arms immediately sprouted out of his shoulders, you'd be calling it a miracle like the rest of us. A miracle? Sure. But, supernatural? So was it a supernatural god or a natural advanced alien with a natural medical tricorder that had a natural regenerate button?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Or a con.
Miracle workers have been around for ever.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8558 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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I assumed the occurrence was genuine in order to make the point.
But, yes, charlatans are pervasive. You are right ... yet again. This is becoming a habit with you. You can stop now.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I assumed the occurrence was genuine in order to make the point. But, yes, charlatans are pervasive. You are right ... yet again. This is becoming a habit with you. You can stop now. I see you've met jar.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8558 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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I see you've met jar. Uhh ... I'm not sure if I have the wrong impression here or if you do. I meant that as a kinda sideways compliment to jar.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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I took it as even bettern getting called to the front of the glass and getting to put a big green star beside my name.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Do you believe that GOD does nothing in your life currently? (Either by way of the Holy Spirit or by way of speaking through others?) in addition to fools, con-men and charlatans, idiots, the deluded, wishful thinkers, infants and the willfully ignorant might also claim god did it. I am assuming that you are going to ask "how" He does this....and "how" you would know.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
AZPaul3 writes: A miracle? Sure. But, supernatural? .....and the difference is?
So was it a supernatural god or a natural advanced alien with a natural medical tricorder that had a natural regenerate button? Why make it more difficult than it has to be? This is your everyday human, 21st century healer bloke. There's no tricks, no alien technology; two real, fully functional human arms suddenly pop onto the shoulders of a previously armless man at the touch of the healer's hand. ( And a muttered prayer, obviously.) All fully witnessed and accredited by the James Randi foundation and 100 sceptics of your choosing. The miracle to be performed once a week until you can't think of anything else to test.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Sometimes you reach the end of the line and you can't make any more adjustments. That's when belief comes in. But logic tells us that belief should only come in when you do not need to make any more adjustments. The religious mind refuses to adjust the faulty premise.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What I believe is totally irrelevant in this case and yes, of course I would ask how I would know.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I would document what happened, what we could observe and put it in the unknown/unexplained folder.
No evidence of the supernatural there.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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