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Author Topic:   Faith and Well-Being
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 60 (740234)
11-03-2014 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
11-03-2014 2:03 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
That's all nice, Phat. But what does it have to do with the conflict between feeling stronger faith when life is going well and the knowledge that such faith is ultimately as empty as Job's would have been had he abandoned his faith in God at the first sign of trouble?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 2:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 10:03 AM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 60 (740236)
11-03-2014 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Stile
11-03-2014 9:32 AM


Re: Self Reflection
Stile writes:
Feelings are the most powerful force to a human mind. They are at their most powerful when not connected to the physical world.
Whether that's good or bad is determined by what we do with those feelings.
I dont mean to dismiss feelings. What I am saying is that some feelings are addictive and automatic whereas others are measured and felt "from the depths"...it is the latter which are more useful

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Stile, posted 11-03-2014 9:32 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 60 (740238)
11-03-2014 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
11-03-2014 9:34 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
If you have knowledge that your faith is empty, perhaps there is some cognitive dissonance at being an agnostic. Some claim that knowing God is impossible. Personally I don't believe it to be so, but I cannot prove to people how I know that God exists, so we agree to disagree.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 11-03-2014 9:34 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 11-03-2014 10:36 AM Phat has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 34 of 60 (740240)
11-03-2014 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
11-03-2014 2:05 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
Evidence Schmevidence. The whole idea of faith and belief excludes evidence as an option.
But evidence that contradicts belief indicates the belief is invalid, and continuing to hold the belief can be delusional.
Belief in a young earth for example (Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1).
However absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Logically the rational position is open-minded skepticism.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 2:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 10:36 AM RAZD has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 60 (740241)
11-03-2014 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by RAZD
11-03-2014 10:22 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
razd writes:
Logically the rational position is open-minded skepticism.
But is this healthy for a believer? After all, a believer has already taken the plunge. Its one thing to question and another to doubt.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by RAZD, posted 11-03-2014 10:22 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by RAZD, posted 11-03-2014 6:26 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 11-04-2014 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 60 (740242)
11-03-2014 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
11-03-2014 10:03 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
I don't think my faith is entirely empty. I just know that if I were to give in to my urges to have stronger faith because my life is going well that the extra faith would be empty.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 10:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 10:38 AM Jon has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 37 of 60 (740243)
11-03-2014 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
11-03-2014 10:36 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
Believers call it worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. If one feels a stronger faith because of the blessings and prosperity in their lives than they do when they are broke and homeless, they could be worshiping the blessings and not the Provider of those blessings.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 11-03-2014 10:36 AM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 38 of 60 (740248)
11-03-2014 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
11-03-2014 2:05 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
Phat writes:
The whole idea of faith and belief excludes evidence as an option.
Bullshit. Faith and belief allows you to form an opinion on subjects for which there is no evidence. It does NOT give you an excuse to ignore evidence that does exist.
As I have pointed out to you many times, people who claim to be "in communion" with Jesus often ignore His teachings - i.e. the evidence suggests that there is no special communication coming to them. You can not just brush off that evidence. What you should be doing is asking yourself why the message isn't getting through instead of making excuses for why you ignore it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 2:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 11:17 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 60 (740253)
11-03-2014 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
11-03-2014 10:54 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
You are right. Actions speak louder than words.
Perhaps preachers should be preaching by acting...by doing.
But words are all we have in this forum.
Unless you want me to send you a fruitcake for Christmas...I shall do so...no strings attached.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 11-03-2014 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 11-03-2014 11:22 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 40 of 60 (740256)
11-03-2014 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
11-03-2014 11:17 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
Phat writes:
Unless you want me to send you a fruitcake for Christmas...I shall do so...no strings attached.
Or you could give the money to that homeless guy instead of stepping over him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 11:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 11-05-2014 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 41 of 60 (740309)
11-03-2014 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
11-03-2014 10:36 AM


doubt vs assurity
But is this healthy for a believer? After all, a believer has already taken the plunge. Its one thing to question and another to doubt.
Yes, I think it is healthy for a believer - there should always be an element of doubt, it helps keep you humble and it holds you back from being a pompous arrogant bigoted flatulence.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 10:36 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 11-04-2014 11:36 AM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 42 of 60 (740353)
11-04-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by RAZD
11-03-2014 6:26 PM


Re: doubt vs assurity
Yes, I think it is healthy for a believer - there should always be an element of doubt, it helps keep you humble and it holds you back from being a pompous arrogant bigoted flatulence.
So, in your opinion, is there never any point at which a person could say yes, this is it, this is the truth and I'm staking my life on it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by RAZD, posted 11-03-2014 6:26 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 11-04-2014 5:08 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 43 of 60 (740366)
11-04-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
11-03-2014 10:36 AM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
Phat writes:
Its one thing to question and another to doubt.
I don't think there's much of a distinction. What's the point of questioning if you don't have doubts about the answer?
Q: Which is better? Chocolate or strawberry?
A: Chocolate.
Q: Okay.
Unfortunately, many Christians have been taught that doubt is "a bad thing" to be avoided. Instead, you should think of it as a safety mechanism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 11-04-2014 5:12 PM ringo has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 44 of 60 (740409)
11-04-2014 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
11-04-2014 11:36 AM


Re: doubt vs assurity
So, in your opinion, is there never any point at which a person could say yes, this is it, this is the truth and I'm staking my life on it?
Curiously, I actually wondered if you would respond to this.
Yes, I am absolutely sure that you cannot ever be absolutely sure .
In all honesty, the best you can say imho is that you believe {X} is absolutely true, and that there is the possibility, however remote, that you could be wrong. In Buddhist belief ALL is illusion.
We learn what we can, we piece it together into a framework that is our world-view, and new information is then pitted against that world-view to see if it is consilient or contrary, and we naturally distrust contrary information more than consilient information (innate confirmation bias), and the problem is, that contrary information could be (more) correct.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 11-04-2014 11:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 3:20 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 45 of 60 (740410)
11-04-2014 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
11-04-2014 12:01 PM


chocolate vs strawberry
Q: Which is better? Chocolate or strawberry?
A: Chocolate.
Q: Okay.
But you can question further: what about chocolate covered strawberries?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 11-04-2014 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 11-05-2014 11:31 AM RAZD has replied

  
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