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Author Topic:   Atheists can't hold office in the USA?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 631 of 777 (750640)
02-19-2015 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by RAZD
02-19-2015 4:44 PM


Re: atheist - agnostic - deist?
I tell "good news" door walkers that I am a leprechaun-ist. I tell them that all the experiences and other "evidences" they may put forward are the result of these mischievous critters having a laugh at human gullibility.
This does not go down well....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by RAZD, posted 02-19-2015 4:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 632 of 777 (750641)
02-19-2015 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Tangle
02-19-2015 2:27 PM


skipping over irrelevant silliness
Curiously I have to wonder why you replied to my post and then did not address any of the issues raised in the post.
Anyone interested in following up on Message 618 can skip to the end of this one ...
... because the real issue to me is (a) what you are skeptical of AND (b) what you are NOT skeptical of,
... not what you believe (because belief is irrelevant).
All of which is irrelevant if you remove the word 'belief' from your analysis.
What analysis was that?
All of which is irrelevant if you remove the word 'belief' ...
So you keep saying ad nauseum while ignoring that I can talk about "agnostic belief" because (a) this is generally understood by the majority of the english speaking public and (b) there is no other word that describes this belief, so one is reluctantly forced to use an inadequate word -- just as you complain about being reluctantly forced to use atheism ...
So forgive me if I consider all your whining about absolutist definitions as sturm und drang signifying nothing. It doesn't appear to matter to anyone other than you -- and that should be crystal clear to you by now.
But none of that was in Message 618.
And yet again, you misunderstand and misrepresent my position.
employs the same logical fallacy that Tangle claimed was his conclusive evidence for his (strong) atheism on this thread.
I do not claim that there is conclusive evidence for the non-existence of god. I have routinely and frequently said entirely the opposite - it is impossible to prove the non-existence of god. I am, of course, entirely aware of the absence of evidence is not evidence of absense bumper sticker. You keep spouting these platitudes as though only you are aware of them.
So you want to go through that again ... even though you have not (yet) replied to my posts to actually show what I quoted from your posts was actually diametrically opposite of what your position actually was ... ... okay ...
Message 479: However, my lack of belief in god is rather different from Faith's belief in God because she says that any evidence that she's presented with that speaks to the non-existence of god cannot be true. I am more than happy to accept any evidence that you, her or anyone wish to present and I WILL change my mind if I find it conclusive. So far I find the lack of evidence for a god conclusive so I conclude that there is no god. However, there remains the possibility that I'm wrong.
(Bold added for reference) ... so when you say "So far I find the lack of evidence for a god conclusive so I conclude that there is no god. " I should take you to mean the diametric opposite rather than take your words at face value. Got it.
So while it LOOKS like you mean the lack of evidence is conclusive (evidence\reason) for concluding there is no god, but that is NOT what you really mean, you mean the diametric opposite.
And when I asked you (Message 460) "Are you a little unsure? a lot unsure? or is it just binary not-sure unsure? Or are you absolutely sure of your position." and you answered:
Message 461: I'm absolutely sure. But I know that there is some probablity that I'm wrong. That's because I'm human and beliefs and knowledge are distinct and seperate and I am capable of holding both those postions without damaging anything inside my head.
And when I said (Message 473) "So you are as adamant about your belief as Faith is about hers. Fascinating." and you answered:
Message 479: I AM sure that there is no god. You seem to have a real problem accepting that. It's "fascinating" to watch you try to misunderstand that - over and over again.
... I should take all THAT to mean the diametric opposite rather than take your words at face value. Right?
Try to understand that my claim is that as well as lacking a belief in god - which I request that you accept at face value because it's a subjective claim that I am the only evidence for - I also go further and say that god/s do not exist. I claim that because of the lack of evidence for them, as I have said and should be obvious, but also - and do try to get this point - because I *believe* that they don't. I've taken that extra step. That is an irrational claim and I'm perfectly happy to own it. But do not confuse it with religion or fundamentalism or a lack of skepticism. I'm as skeptical as anyone here and I am very open to changing my mind - given the evidence.
Now what I say above is actually not the whole of it and doesn't actually properly describe the feeling - because that's what it is. It makes the feeling positive, an active disbelief, which it isn't. It's simply a lack of belief - that's why all this talk about special pleading is important to understand. We have Dwise1 now attempting to force a Christian disbelief on me! How dare Christians tell me which god I'm allowed not to believe in! This is special pleading in spades. I have a lack of belief in YHWH the same as I have a lack of belief in Zeus. Exacly the same. Apparently that is impossible to understand.
I accept that people are not Vulcans, they have an irrational side which is older and probably more important than our recently acquired rational side, without which we'd be lost and hopelessly indecisive. It's time we grew up and accepted that our emotional decision making has a use in those areas where certainty can not exist.
Curiously I am not going to spend any additional time and effort trying to understand your rather confused claims of what you do believe and what is diametrically opposite to what you believe based on previous claims. I wonder should I even read when you claim it to be diametrically opposite of previous statements.
Certainly you have put NO effort into understanding MY position, when there should be some reciprocity here.
I'm not asking you to accept this, and I'm certainly not requiring anyone else to feel the same, But I am asking you to at least try to understand it and not dismiss it out of hand because it does not chime with your own beliefs. (And don't kid yourself you don’t have them.)
First you say everyone has beliefs and now you say I don't have any. Amusing. If you don't want to look completely ridiculous I recommend you put some actual effort into understanding my position.
Again, you have put no effort into understanding my position, so what you have to say is irrelevant and unfounded.
I'm as skeptical as anyone here and I am very open to changing my mind - given the evidence.
Your record on this is actually very poor -- you have been provided with numerous people providing volumes of evidence that your position on what atheism means is wrong and narrow minded, yet you have not yielded one iota from your initial claim. So you will forgive me when I am skeptical of your claim.
If you want to discuss skepticism, I suggest you leave your baggage about atheism and beliefs at the door ... because curiously my post was not about beliefs, but a way to get around your distraction from the topic.
To recap Message 618 (see for additional details if necessary, starting at):
Politically here in the US (to return to the thread topic), I think it would be much more acceptable to say you are a skeptic than to say you are an atheist. This word does have wide usage in atheist circles -- see The NESS
Discuss.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Tangle, posted 02-19-2015 2:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Straggler, posted 02-19-2015 8:03 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 634 by Tangle, posted 02-20-2015 1:52 AM RAZD has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 633 of 777 (750643)
02-19-2015 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by RAZD
02-19-2015 7:12 PM


Re: skipping over irrelevant silliness
Gosh how silly of me not to comply with the "but deities are different" paradigm. My apologies. Carry on....

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 634 of 777 (750652)
02-20-2015 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 632 by RAZD
02-19-2015 7:12 PM


Re: skipping over irrelevant silliness
RAZD writes:
... not what you believe (because belief is irrelevant).
'Curiously,' I read no further because belief is actually the topic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by RAZD, posted 02-19-2015 7:12 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2015 2:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 635 of 777 (750655)
02-20-2015 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
02-16-2015 5:19 PM


Re: What Bugs Me About Atheist Activists
This is what bugs me about atheists. They whine about any mention of God in a secular setting even if they dont believe God exists. Notice how a speaker could say "May the force be with you" or "may the universe favor you" or any number of other things without provoking a reaction...so why the big deal about God?
The incident I refer to is this one: [YULLE, Fla. school incident]
It has already been pointed out that that student was serving as an agent of the government acting in his official capacity, which made his religious remarks a government action, which is a violation of the First Amendment. And it has already been pointed out that the Christians complaining about the decision to stop that government agent from mentioning God while acting in his official capacity (reading the morning announcements) were doing so under a false sense of Christian Privilege in which they believe that they have to right to use any and all public venues, including government agencies, to promote and impose their own religion on everybody else. And you have recognized those points and appear to agree with them, or at least to be taking them under consideration.
But what troubles me is that you automatically denounced the two students who complained as being "atheist activists". Just because they lodged legitimate complaints? Or just because they're atheists? In your favorite anti-atheist propaganda film, "God is NOT Dead", if any Christian student in that sham philosophy class had complained about Sorbo's unwarranted attacks against their religion, would you call them "Christian activists"? I doubt that very much.
Within the past few years or more in the Capistrano School District there was a case in which a high school teacher would routinely challenge the students' assumptions in an effort to get them to think. One comment in particular that he would make referred to how fundamentalists would view the world through their "Jesus glasses", meaning that they would filter everything through their belief system. That and his confrontational approach led some of his Christian students filing complaints against him, which I seem to recall led to a lawsuit which the students won. Google'ing on Jesus glasses should lead you to pages about it; I'm sure that you've never heard about it from your Christian propaganda mills since they couldn't use it to promote their lies about "Christian persecution" since the decision was in the Christians' favor. So, would you consider those students to have been activists as well? They certainly went further than those two atheist students in Florida did. So why do you call the atheists "activists" and not the Christians?
And what about that atheist US Air Force Tech Sergeant who was suddenly faced with a new religious test being imposed for reenlistment and being denied reenlistment solely because of that religious test (see my Message 610)? He was being actively discriminated against and could find no redress through his chain of command until the American Humanist Association threatened the USAF with a lawsuit, which finally got the top brass to review the situation and immediately realize how damned illegal their actions and ordered his reenlistment paperwork to be processed. So you would call him an "atheist activist" too?
Well, when the USAF story was posted on Facebook, many of the hundreds of comments did accuse him of being an atheist activist, of trying to cause trouble, of just wanting attention, and many more outrageous things. It was a false sense of Christian Privilege Gone Wild. Many proclaimed that believing in God is a requirement for serving in the military (absolutely false!), that when you enlist you lose all your rights (most absolutely false!), that we have always been "one nation under God" (also false; that religious wording splitting apart "one nation indivisible" was only introduced in 1954), etc. The comments in support of the TSgt tried to point out that his rights were being violated, that the Air Force was in direct violation of the law and of the US Constitution, and to correct the opponents many wrong ideas about the Pledge (changed in 1954), the Motto (changed in 1956), the Constitution, and military service. The comments against the TSgt were irrational, based on utter falsehoods, and without any merit, yet they were the prevailing opinion. As W.C. Fields said, "There comes a time in the affairs of men that you have to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation."
I have some questions about those two atheist students that I don't see addressed. They complained to the American Humanist Association (AHA), but did they first try to complain to the school? Proper procedure is to follow the chain of command to get problems resolved at the lowest level possible and only go over someone's head when you cannot get the problem resolved at that level. But these were kids who hadn't yet been trained in proper procedure, so they likely didn't try to resolve the problem at the school level. Or worse, they had tried and were met by the same false sense of Christian Privilege that you yourself assumed. Or the school staff had already created a hostile environment which discouraged the students from even thinking of trying, so that they knew immediately that they had to go outside the system to get the problem resolved. Even though the kids, being kids, probably wouldn't have followed proper procedure in any case, I also strongly suspect that the school officials were themselves caught up in that false sense of Christian Privilege and so I don't feel very confident that they would have done the right thing on their own without outside pressure from the AHA.
...so why the big deal about God?
On the face of it, it shouldn't be a big deal. Just like finding out that somebody is not a Christian or even is an atheist (even though that's the same thing to many Christians) shouldn't be a big deal. Just like a politician's personal religious affiliations should not be a big deal. Nor would it have been a big deal if it were just an isolated incident.
But it was not just an isolated incident, but rather yet another offense that must be taken in context. The context is that Christian activists (yes! It is the Christians who are the activists!) who have declared culture war on the rest of society and who make it their business to push on all the fronts that they can to further their agenda. Part of those efforts involves grass-roots organizing of local zealots. One example is the "Question Evolution" program in which students are given lists of "impossible questions" to raise in science class in order to challenge what's being taught and to disrupt the class (I've seen the list and even had it tried on me; one such "impossible question" is "Where did all the compounds come from?" to which the answer is "That is basic chemistry. Take the class and try to learn something."). I haven't encountered any, but I'm sure that there are also programs recruiting students to push for organized prayer in school, such as in class or at school events, though they seem to end up with prayer circles before class (student-organized and student-led religious activities are fine so long as it's not on school time and not part of a school event and it's not disruptive, but a student-led prayer as part of a school event would not be). And interjecting religious statements as part of the morning announcements would be another tactic that these activists would push. It is important that none of those efforts be allowed to go unchallenged.
True, some of those incidents might not be part of the culture war, but rather might just be an individual acting entirely on his own because of a false sense of Christian Privilege, but, because of the environment created by the Christian activists fighting the culture war that they have declared on society, every innocent violation of church-state separation and just plain good manners must be challenged as well. If it weren't for the Christian declaration and prosecution of culture war, we could be more forgiving. But because of the clear and present danger that they present, we cannot be afforded that luxury.
So what harm was done to those two atheist students? I can only speak for myself when I was in that same situation about half a century ago. I was raised on the standard stories about the founding of our nation which especial emphasis being placed on religious freedom and religious liberty, which included how that freedom is protected by church-state separation. But then I observed how school officials would routinely inject religion into school events, especially in our assemblies. The hypocrisy was not lost on me, nor on other students. That engendered a growing cynicism towards and distrust of authority figures and a generally negative attitude, which is not a healthy attitude for a society to instill in its youth. So how did that make me any different from the other teenagers? In my case, I could trace my attitude to specific causes.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 636 of 777 (750692)
02-20-2015 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by Tangle
02-19-2015 12:54 PM


Re: black and white ... and a drop grey
Well, it can be truly maddening to try to state extremely simple and obvious self-evident facts to someone completely unable to comprehend any of it. Your inability to comprehend is truly mind-boggling.
Again:
Do not say the opposite of what you mean, but rather say what you do mean.
What part of that are you completely unable to understand? How could I possibly state it any more simply than that so that you can start to understand it?
And in the meantime, now you've started lying about what I have said. Why are you now resorting to lying? It's not as if you were a creationist or a Christian, so why would you need to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Tangle, posted 02-19-2015 12:54 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 637 of 777 (750693)
02-20-2015 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Tangle
02-19-2015 1:23 PM


Re: Fresh meat. :-)
(Or are you with Dwise1 in thinking that the word 'god' only means YHWH?)
That is an outright lie! I have never said any such thing and I most certainly do not think that!
The word "god" per se and free of context can mean any god, whether actual, imaginary, or metaphoric. But when used in certain contexts then it does indeed only mean YHWH; that is simply how the language works. Like when it is used as a name or in phrases such as your recurring "believe in god". When you (personally!) use it in such a context, then you (personally!) are indeed talking only about YHWH. That is simply how the language works and no amount of you wishing you were Faith can enable you to arbitrarily redefine the entire English language.
You insist upon and persist in using the word "god" in a context in which it specifically only means YHWH.
I am well aware of the meanings and usages of the word, "god". Are you? All we can go by is what you write and what you write informs us that, no, you are not aware of the meanings and usages of that word. You need to remove your own confusion instead of trying to induce confusion in others.
And stop your fucking lying!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Tangle, posted 02-19-2015 1:23 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 638 of 777 (750694)
02-20-2015 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Tangle
02-19-2015 2:27 PM


Re: message links -- and suggesting skeptic/skepticism
We have Dwise1 now attempting to force a Christian disbelief on me!
That is a complete and utter lie! I have never done any such thing nor would I ever attempt to!
It is your own statements which are contrary to your actual position through which you are restricting yourself to YHWH! It's up to you to stop doing that!
Do not say the opposite of what you mean, but rather say what you do mean.
What part of that are you completely unable to understand?
And stop with the fucking lies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Tangle, posted 02-19-2015 2:27 PM Tangle has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 639 of 777 (750701)
02-20-2015 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by dwise1
02-20-2015 9:12 PM


Re: black and white ... and a drop grey
Well, it can be truly maddening to try to state extremely simple and obvious self-evident facts to someone completely unable unwilling to comprehend any of it.
Fixed that for you.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 640 of 777 (750706)
02-21-2015 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 637 by dwise1
02-20-2015 9:13 PM


Re: Fresh meat. :-)
Dwise1 writes:
The word "god" per se and free of context can mean any god, whether actual, imaginary, or metaphoric.
The word god, does indeed mean god.
But when used in certain contexts then it does indeed only mean YHWH;
Yes, the context then would be when someone says "I don't believe in YHWH"
Like when it is used as a name or in phrases such as your recurring "believe in god".
That is bullshit. The word "god" does not mean YHWH. Where are you getting this nonsense from?
When you (personally!) use it in such a context, then you (personally!) are indeed talking only about YHWH.
I am not using the word 'god' to mean YHWH, nor have I ever been. The concept is utterly ludicrous. I have told you that I have never mentioned YHWH except to correct you when you say this. I have said to you several times, that when I say god I mean god, God, god and Gods. That is ALL gods. Which bit of that needs further clarification now that I have said it 4 or 5 times to you?
That is simply how the language works and no amount of you wishing you were Faith can enable you to arbitrarily redefine the entire English language.
Language works like this:
1. I say something using the word 'god'. That word to me just means god - any god from the thousands that we can choose from. Here's a random definition from the Oxford dictionary:
1 (In Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2 (god) (In certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity:
a moon god the Hindu god Vishnu
2. For some reason, let's call it cultural, you jump to the conclusion that I'm talking about YHWH. No-one else here thinks I'm talking about YHWH, but let that pass.
3. I correct you and explain what I mean.
4. At this point you say "ah, ok, I thought you meant YHWH, sorry, carry on."
That would be reasonable. But instead you carry on telling me that when I say 'god' I mean YHWH. That is bordering on insanity.
And just to finish off this bit of nonsense, Neither I, nor anyone else, is an atheist only because they don't believe in YHWH "the national god of the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah." What on earth are you thinking??

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by dwise1, posted 02-20-2015 9:13 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by Straggler, posted 02-21-2015 4:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 641 of 777 (750707)
02-21-2015 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Tangle
02-21-2015 3:38 AM


Re: Fresh meat. :-)
I can only assume that there is some cultural miscommunication going on here but I too am baffled as to why any mention of the term god is being interpreted as purely a reference to YHWH. I guess in some circles it would be similarly assumed one was talking about Allah. It must be a UK -US thing....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Tangle, posted 02-21-2015 3:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 642 of 777 (750708)
02-21-2015 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 641 by Straggler
02-21-2015 4:58 AM


Re: Fresh meat. :-)
Straggler writes:
I can only assume that there is some cultural miscommunication going on here but I too am baffled as to why any mention of the term god is being interpreted as purely a reference to YHWH. I guess in some circles it would be similarly assumed one was talking about Allah. It must be a UK -US thing....
Yeh, I figured that. But I've made it clear several times - at least 5 times - that I'm not referring to YHWH and he's still telling me that I mean YHWH when I say god!!
Surely Americans can't really think that the term 'god' is reserved only for the Jewish/Christian god??
This thread just gets weirder and weirder.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 651 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 643 of 777 (750713)
02-21-2015 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by Tangle
02-21-2015 5:21 AM


Re: Fresh meat. :-)
Surely Americans can't really think that the term 'god' is reserved only for the Jewish/Christian god??
Sure we can. This is America. We can do anything.
However, once the speaker defines their use of "god" to not refer solely to any specific species of such the rest of the attendees should have taken the message and acknowledged accordingly.
In failing to do so I think in this case we are looking at a personal affectation.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by dwise1, posted 02-21-2015 1:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2395 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 644 of 777 (750721)
02-21-2015 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by Tangle
02-21-2015 5:21 AM


Re: Fresh meat. :-)
Tangle writes:
Surely Americans can't really think that the term 'god' is reserved only for the Jewish/Christian god??
Oh, of course it is -- since no other gods exist it's absolutely reserved.
I'm sure it must get the same treatment in the Muslim fundamentalist world.
I certainly have no position on any debate in this thread beyond my own comments - I truly haven't read the thread, but I DO know that to most fundamentalist Christians, "God" is reserved *solely* for reference to YHWH for what they consider to be inarguable logical reasons.
That's 'Murica baby.
JB
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by Tangle, posted 02-21-2015 10:21 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 646 by Jon, posted 02-21-2015 11:11 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 645 of 777 (750723)
02-21-2015 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 644 by ThinAirDesigns
02-21-2015 10:01 AM


Re: Fresh meat. :-)
TAD writes:
That's 'Murica baby.
Yeh, y'all need to get out more - it's embarrassing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 10:01 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 11:43 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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