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Author Topic:   Sinning for Others
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 43 (762167)
07-09-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
07-09-2015 12:43 PM


Re: First post >.<
Cat Sci writes:
What does blasphemy of the HS mean to you?
To me it seems like a catch-all no-escape clause: "Thou shalt not A, B, C... or anything else that God doesn't want you to do." As iano used to say, it's impossible to obey the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 12:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 2:03 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 17 of 43 (762176)
07-09-2015 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
07-09-2015 1:09 PM


Re: First post >.<
Cat Sci writes:
What does blasphemy of the HS mean to you?
To me it seems like a catch-all no-escape clause: "Thou shalt not A, B, C... or anything else that God doesn't want you to do." As iano used to say, it's impossible to obey the law.
That's not how the Bible describes it. I outlined that in Message 5:
quote:
Jesus had healed a man through the power of the Holy Spirit and then the Pharisees said that Jesus had used Beelzebub's power to do it.
That's what Jesus said Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was. Its when God does something and then you go: "Nah, that wasn't God that was the devil."
From Matthew 12:
quote:
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I expanded on that in Message 6:
quote:
I think that it works the other way around too.
So if you do something and you know it wasn't from God, but then you go and tell people that it was God that did it, then I think that counts too.
Like televangelists who act like they're filled with the Holy Spirit, but they're just lying and faking it so people will give them money.
It makes sense to me that God would be totally against that; being an impostor of God. It takes His place and it makes Him look bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 11:54 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 3176 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 18 of 43 (762194)
07-09-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
07-09-2015 11:12 AM


Re: First post >.<
Thank you for the welcome.
I think that what Jon meant was to ask if any one of us would...of their own free will...take on the sin of another (kinda like Jesus did) even if it meant we would perish as a result. I might be wrong, however.
That would be an interesting topic if that is what Jon meant. There may be some objections.
Hows Sweden, by the way?
The weather is not nice today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 07-09-2015 11:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 3176 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 19 of 43 (762196)
07-09-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
07-09-2015 12:43 PM


Re: First post >.<
What does blasphemy of the HS mean to you? Can you give an example of it?
Thank you for replying.
I would say it is as you have explained in another post. Making a false claim or speaking wrongly of the HS.
For example, claiming that God's (Jesus') power (HS) is of Satan (Matt 12:24).
Mark 3:28-29 (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 12:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 3:26 PM Mal has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 43 (762200)
07-09-2015 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Mal
07-09-2015 3:14 PM


Re: First post >.<
I would say it is as you have explained in another post. Making a false claim or speaking wrongly of the HS.
Would you also agree with my Message 6 that it goes the other way too? That is, a televangelist, for instance, who is lying about the HS being behind his magic tricks is committing the sin of blaspheming the HS?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:14 PM Mal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 3176 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


(1)
Message 21 of 43 (762205)
07-09-2015 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
07-09-2015 3:26 PM


Re: First post >.<
Hi
Would you also agree with my Message 6 that it goes the other way too? That is, a televangelist, for instance, who is lying about the HS being behind his magic tricks is committing the sin of blaspheming the HS?
I would agree, it makes perfect sense.
There was something about prophets making false prophecys in my head somewhere so I did a search and think this might help.
Deuteronomy 18:20
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death."
It looks a little like the televangelist example you gave. They are both making false claims about God.
I might be completely wrong!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 3:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 3:59 PM Mal has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 43 (762211)
07-09-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mal
07-09-2015 3:46 PM


Re: First post >.<
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death."
Man... OT God was vicious!
There'd be a lot of people today that He'd have put to death if that was still a rule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:46 PM Mal has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 43 (762242)
07-09-2015 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mal
07-09-2015 10:36 AM


Re: First post >.<
Welcome, Mal!
I was confused by the first two sentences as one refers to a single item and the other to plural.
By 'unforgivable sin' I simply mean the idea that sin(s) exist that cannot be forgiven no matter the circumstances.
"If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?"
I am not sure under which circumstances this could happen.
If you save the life of an innocent person is that not a good thing that deserves a reward rather than a punishment?
I would think so; though, of course, it isn't my decision to make.
I am not sure which god would sentence someone to eternal torment for saving an innocent person.
Apparently New Cat's Eye thinks his might:
quote:
New Cat's Eye in Message 6:
If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?
Nope.
I find it rather disturbing.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 10:36 AM Mal has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 24 of 43 (762243)
07-09-2015 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-20-2015 12:36 PM


Jon writes:
Do you believe in unforgivable sin?
What do you consider these sins to be?
I suggest that it is serving and loving evil and calling it good. Here is a quote I've used before from CS Lewis's book "The Last Battle". Aslan represents the Christ figure and Tash represents the face of evil.
quote:
I (Aslan) take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.
It isn't so much that the sin can't be forgiven but it is simply that worshipping or following that which is evil or hateful, (as that is the opposite of what Christ taught), then we have made our choice and God honours that choice. As Lewis says in "The Great Divorce"
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.
The only thing I would add is that I also believe that in the end there is perfect justice, and if such things as mental illness are involved then God's perfect justice will prevail.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:36 PM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 25 of 43 (762277)
07-10-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
07-09-2015 2:03 PM


Re: First post >.<
Cat Sci writes:
That's what Jesus said Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was. Its when God does something and then you go: "Nah, that wasn't God that was the devil."
I think you're being too specific. Blasphemy is all about attitude and respect. I call it a catch-all because "the judge" can always say, "I don't like your attitude," - i.e. he can find you in contempt whether you intended contempt or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 2:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-10-2015 11:57 AM ringo has replied
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-10-2015 12:03 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 43 (762278)
07-10-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
07-10-2015 11:54 AM


Re: First post >.<
It would seem to me the whole idea is whether the Judge has any right to hold you accountable to an arbitrary standard. I would argue that he does, in fact, have that power and that right. You may argue about the right...after all, freethinkers love loopholes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-10-2015 12:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 43 (762280)
07-10-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
07-10-2015 11:57 AM


Re: First post >.<
Phat writes:
You may argue about the right...after all, freethinkers love loopholes.
How exactly are you using the word "loophole"? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-10-2015 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 28 of 43 (762281)
07-10-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
07-10-2015 11:54 AM


Re: First post >.<
I think you're being too specific. Blasphemy is all about attitude and respect. I call it a catch-all because "the judge" can always say, "I don't like your attitude," - i.e. he can find you in contempt whether you intended contempt or not.
Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit is different than just your regular old everyday blasphemy, which presumably is forgivable.
Also, if the judge is God then he should be able to look inside you and see if your contempt was intended, so that analogy isn't working for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 43 (762282)
07-10-2015 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
07-10-2015 11:57 AM


Re: First post >.<
Phat writes:
It would seem to me the whole idea is whether the Judge has any right to hold you accountable to an arbitrary standard.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's an arbitrary standard, entirely at the whim of the judge and sometimes unpredictable.
Phat writes:
I would argue that he does, in fact, have that power and that right.
So might makes right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-10-2015 11:57 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 30 of 43 (762283)
07-10-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by New Cat's Eye
07-10-2015 12:03 PM


Re: First post >.<
Cat Sci writes:
Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit is different than just your regular old everyday blasphemy....
Sez you.
Cat Sci writes:
Also, if the judge is God then he should be able to look inside you and see if your contempt was intended, so that analogy isn't working for me.
God's omniscience is irrelevant. It's the fact that you don't know how He will react that makes it impossible to obey the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-10-2015 12:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-10-2015 12:18 PM ringo has replied

  
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