As I Suspected...

Rrhain admits: But Jon is a good participant here, like you. Welcome back.

Of course, blame someone else. But blaming someone else won't lower the inordinately high crime rates that plague African American communities Blaming someone else won't un-rob convenience stores; it won't un-bust up car dealerships; it won't un-wave a gun around in a public park.Racist oppression is not what is causing the high crime rate amongst African Americans.African Americans are committing more murders today than in 1975 (though it's down since a huge spike in the '80s and '90s). (Bureau of Justice Statistics pdf)In the middle of the twentieth century, African Americans made up a little less than 30% of the incarcerated population; by the turn of the 21st century the number had risen to 40%. Decades after the Civil Rights movement and the dismantling of Jim Crow and we are still dealing with high crime and incarceration rates amongst African Americans.What's more, the racial discrimination of policing that you imply doesn't exist.

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"Police Kill More Whites than Blacks" from Washington Times:

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Based on that data, Mr. Moskos reported that roughly 49 percent of those killed by officers from May 2013 to April 2015 were white, while 30 percent were black. He also found that 19 percent were Hispanic and 2 percent were Asian and other races.
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But also adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown in violent crime, the data actually show that police are less likely to kill black suspects than white ones.

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"If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be killed by police than blacks," said Mr. Moskos, a former Baltimore cop and author of the book "Cop in the Hood."

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Racist oppression is not what is causing the high crime rate amongst African Americans. There's something else going on; something that desperately needs to be discovered and addressed. Something that waving around sociology slogans and protesting in the streets over dead criminals won't fix. I invoked nothing; I was responding to your invocation earlier in the thread.Your repeated attempts to draw a connection between BLM and MLK are not only erroneous, but sad and disgusting.The modern civil rights movement is failing the black folks it is meant to help, and black leaders and those in a position to do something about it need to have the courage to admit this.

Jon responds to me:

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Of course, blame someone else.

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Of course, blame the victim. But blaming the victim won't solve the problem of crime. Blaming the victim won't make crime happen...because crime is at its lowest levels since we've started keeping track.Indeed, black people are incarcerated at vastly higher numbers than the presence in the population.That isn't a sign that blacks are criminally inclined. That's a sign of systemic racism. Blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be questioned, more likely to be detained, more likely to be arrested, more likely to be prosecuted, more likely to be convicted, and more likely to receive a harsher sentence than white people. At every level, the justice system seeks to punish blacks more harshly than whites and you think that the presence of more blacks in the prison population is a problem of the black community rather than the racism of the justice system?Your statistics don't take into account the fact that blacks are a minority population. The raw numbers of black-on-white crime is higher than white-on-black crime, but that is because there are more white people in the population. For example, in 2010, according to the DOJ, 447 whites were killed by blacks compared to 218 blacks killed by whites. But because there aren't that many black people in the population, the white-on-black murder rate represents a much higher risk of a black person being killed by a white person than the risk of a white person being murdered by a black person. Any given black person is nearly three times more likely to be murdered by a white person than the other way around.This has to do with the encounter rate between races. Due to segregation (white flight, ghettoization, etc.), the typical person a white person meets has only about a 3% chance of being black. But the typical person a black person meets has about a 57% chance of being white. Given the number of offenders out there, the black-on-white crime rate is actually lower than what you would expect it to be.Um, did you read your own source?The claim isn't that the raw numbers of blacks killed by police is larger than whites but that a black person is more likely to be killed by a cop than a white person. And those numbers directly state it. According to the US Census, whites make up 77.7% of the population, blacks 13.2%, Hispanics 17.1%, and Asians 5.3% with American Indians and Alaskan Natives being 1.2%.So why is it blacks are getting shot at more than twice their representation in the population?

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Racist oppression is not what is causing the high crime rate amongst African Americans. There's something else going on; something that desperately needs to be discovered and addressed. Something that waving around sociology slogans and protesting in the streets over dead criminals won't fix.

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Dismissing the very obvious racist oppression that is taking place and blaming the victims of it is deliberately ignoring the problem and pretending that it is merely "sociology slogans" will never fix it.And you're quite right that I invoked MLK. After all, he was confronted with your exact argument: That somehow "protesting in the streets" won't actually help anything.So if MLK himself says you're wrong about MLK's opinion, who are you to contradict him?

You'll note, and the record proves, that I didn't blame anyone.The only one interested in passing around blame instead of solving problems is you. The percentage of overall population isn't what matters; it's the percentage of representation in the criminal population.The truth is that the police aren't going around shooting random black people just for fun; nor are they going around shooting random white people just for fun. The shootings happen in the context of criminalor suspected criminalbehavior, and when you adjust for those figures, when police get themselves into a sticky situation with white people they are more likely to shoot the suspect than when they get themselves into a sticky situation with black people. I never said they were. I said that crime is a bigger problem in black communities than it is in white ones. And that's true. And that's a flat-out lie. The percentage of the prison population that is black continues to rise even as old-style racism is becoming an endangered species. Unless you think there was less 'systemic racism' back in the days of Jim Crow, the fact that you could consider racism as the driving factor behind the rising black prison population is baffling.As I have said a number of times now, racism is not the cause of the disparities between white and black life achievement, and black folk agree (last question): The same percentage of African Americans who recognize their poor position in life also do not attribute this to racism.And this should come as no surprise, since black people are well aware of the fact that white-against-black racism is not the problem it used to be. In fact, a larger percentage of blacks now consider blacks more racist that whites:

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"More Americans View Blacks As Racist Than Whites, Hispanics" from Rasmussen Reports:

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Among black Americans, 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.

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And empirical evidence bears this out; African Americans are more likely to commit 'hate crimes' than white Americans (remember that whites comprise roughly 78% of the U.S. population, and blacks 13%):

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Wikipedia on Race and Crime in the U.S.:

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According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report database, in 2010 58.6% of hate crime offenders were white (including Hispanics), 18.4% of offenders were black, 8.9% were of individuals of multiple races and 1% of offenders were Native Americans.

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This is the true reality of racism in America. Racism against blacks is at levels lower than ever before, to the point that the trend of black racism against whites is overtaking white racism against blacks, yet the lot of African Americans continues to be poor and in many cases worsening.The logical conclusion to draw from this is that racism is not at the heart of the white-black achievement gap in the U.S., meaning that even if you got rid of all the racism among whites, it would only make a dimple of a difference in the life achievement gap between white and black Americans.The black community doesn't need your white guilt or your 'help' in fighting imagined racism. What disadvantaged African Americans need are real solutions with real impact on the real problems they face.Your approach is just old, tired, and ineffective. Your intentions may be good, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows they are misguided.Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

MLK didnt just make speeches. he was a hands-on activist. Real activism takes work. Interactions with families. food and clothing drives. Getting to know the community personally.Not simply climbing on soapboxes (or posting You Tube videos) and making speeches. This is, i think, Jons point. BLM is only effective so long as they walk the walk rather than simply talking to the media and getting press coverage.

Did the Black Lives Matter crusade lead to this?

Texas Deputy Slaying: Suspect Shannon Miles Charged in Killing of Darren Goforth

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http://www.nbcnews.com/...fs-deputy-darren-h-goforth-n418286

Or did this?

TEXAS DEPUTY Executed 2 Weeks After New Black Panthers Promised to Off the Pigs at Local Rally

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TEXAS DEPUTY Executed 2 Weeks After New Black Panthers Promised to "Off the Pigs" at Local Rally (VIdeo)

Phat responds to me:

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Not simply climbing on soapboxes (or posting You Tube videos) and making speeches. This is, i think, Jons point. BLM is only effective so long as they walk the walk rather than simply talking to the media and getting press coverage.

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I agree. But what makes you think they're not? After all, their actions with Bernie Sanders have led to him taking them onto his campaign. Clinton is asking them to help her develop legislation.Exactly what is it they need to do that will result in Jon not considering the actions of two people not connected to the movement to dismiss the movement? Unlike ACT UP getting drug trials through, racism isn't going to end by changing some policies. Things like California deciding that officer-involved prosecutions are no longer taken to secret grand juries are a good thing, but there's more to be done and that's only one state.But BLM was part of the reason why it happened.

Jon responds to me:

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The percentage of overall population isn't what matters; it's the percentage of representation in the criminal population.

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I see...and since blacks are criminals, their being killed more often by cops is just an artifact of them being criminals.If you're black holding a toy gun in a toy store that sells the toy gun, you're a criminal and should be shot.If you're a black child in a park playing with a toy gun, you're a criminal and should be shot.You're assuming that blacks are criminals and thus deserving of the treatment they are getting...and in the process ignoring the fact that white people engaging in even worse criminal activity such as shooting at the cops while being chased by them manage to get taken into custody while not getting shot.You seem to ignore that the entire justice system is rigged against black people so that you can blame them for the consequences of being caught in it. That somehow it's up to blacks to change their lives so that the cops stop shooting them.

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and when you adjust for those figures, when police get themselves into a sticky situation with white people they are more likely to shoot the suspect than when they get themselves into a sticky situation with black people.

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Incorrect. It is the exact opposite.

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And that's a flat-out lie. The percentage of the prison population that is black continues to rise even as old-style racism is becoming an endangered species.

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And yet the facts contradict you. Your claim that "old-style racism is becoming an endangered species" simply isn't true and is being reinforced by more pervasive and subtle forms.In Ferguson, for example, despite the neighborhood being overwhelmingly black, the police force and justice department are overwhelmingly white.

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Unless you think there was less 'systemic racism' back in the days of Jim Crow

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dOr, perhaps, system racism hasn't lessened but simply shifted in its methodology. When a black man can be pulled over simply for "making direct eye contact" with a cop, do you really think it's an "endangered species"? Black man pulled over in Ohio for making 'direct eye contact' with cops is from Detroit

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As I have said a number of times now, racism is not the cause of the disparities between white and black life achievement, and black folk agree (last question):

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Do you really not understand the difference between "perception" and actuality? Your survey only looks at what people think, not at what actually happens. You can't be aware of things that you aren't paying attention to. When you don't get the job, you don't have access to the other applicants to be able to determine if it was race that was involved in you not getting an interview.But even your survey indicates blacks see a much higher level of discrimination.Why do you dismiss them?The black community doesn't need your pontificating. Your insistence that we are somehow "post-racial" is ineffective. Your refusal to recognize reality will ensure that no "real" solution to "real" problems will ever happen.Your intentions may be good, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows they are misguided.

If you think fighting racism is going to have a significant impact on the lives of African Americans, then prove it.As you know, I've already started a thread where you can lay out your argument with all your evidence and logic.This thread is specifically about BLM and is not the place to make the argument you're trying to make.

I think fighting colonialism had a significant impact on colonial Americans. There seems to be a parallel....

Jon responds to me:

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If you think fighting racism is going to have a significant impact on the lives of African Americans, then prove it.

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Did you not just claim MLK for yourself? What do you think he was fighting against? Merely poverty? Do you really think the Civil Rights Act had no significant impact on the lives of black people in this country?

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As you know, I've already started a thread where you can lay out your argument with all your evidence and logic.

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And as you know, I've already pointed out the fallacy of your opening post.

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This thread is specifically about BLM and is not the place to make the argument you're trying to make.

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And exactly what do you think BLM is doing? Oh, that's right...they're just a bunch of rabble-rousers who want to whine. That's why you can dismiss them after seeing two people who aren't even connected to BLM make life slightly inconvenient for a white man.

The other thread's open, Rrhain, whenever you're ready to lay down some numbers.