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Author Topic:   What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 136 of 222 (416430)
08-15-2007 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by georgeculolias
08-15-2007 3:45 PM


What it reminds me of....
As WK notes this reminds me of the marines or North Korean brainwashing.
You destroy the subjects will and then re-imprint his brain. You pick a truly nice thing to worship there. Of course, if you believe this is how he runs things then I guess it might be a safe approach to do a bit of groveling eh? ( I had some trouble with schoolyard bullies because I was very slow to learn that lesson).

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 Message 132 by georgeculolias, posted 08-15-2007 3:45 PM georgeculolias has not replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6065 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 137 of 222 (416431)
08-15-2007 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Wounded King
08-15-2007 6:28 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
Did my story sound like I'm disappointed or unhappy by what happened to me? Did it sound like I think God is an jerk because of how he led me to open my mind?
Doubt says," that God really wrecked your life and you're HAPPY about it? What are you dumb!
Faith say, "You needed to open your mind to the possibility of his existance and until you did you couldn't hear faith's voice. By God taking away what you THOUGHT was important, he helped you to open your mind to the most important idea you have ever known. Now look at your life and see if what he's led you to has made you happy."
Would I change a thing, not a chance!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Wounded King, posted 08-15-2007 6:28 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6065 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 138 of 222 (416437)
08-15-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Jaderis
08-15-2007 6:41 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
I'd like to relate another story, since you asked if I could have been ready to make the changes by myself.
As I grew closer to God I realized my drugs and alcohol use was keeping me from becoming the man I wanted to be.
I would say and do things under the influence, that I would never do when I was sober and in control. My ego would come out and I would have to be on top again putting other people down. My stuff was better, I made more money, my girlfriend was prettier, blah, blah, blah. It was pathetic the kind of person I would become. I decided I didn’t like the person I was when I was using and drinking. It was easy to decide I wanted to stop, but stopping, now that was another story. Then I began to hate that I couldn’t control myself. Self loathing started whenever I was coming off a cocaine binge. The power of cocaine was something I could not control. Trust me; I tried many, many times. After having a few lines it was such a struggle to control it. The inner battles were terrible because I always lost. Even if I stopped for that night, a few days later I was back doing the same thing, getting high. Then the inevitable come down. After a weekend of coke and booze, the coming down part was the worst feeling I have ever felt. Once I actually thought of killing myself, just to end how bad I felt at the time. I knew I was insane to do the same thing over and over and end up feeling so pitiful. Why did I keep using? That’s a good question I can’t answer. All I do know is that I couldn’t control it and it felt as if I were being dropped into a deep black pit with no hope of ever getting out.
I reached out to the only thing I knew to save me. God was in my life, if he exists, he had to save me from myself. At the end of one of my last cocaine binges I was awake at 2 PM AGAIN, not being able to sleep, gritting my teeth and feeling horrible. I prayed for help. I remember the prayer as something like this,,” God help me to quit doing this to myself. I hate it. I hate myself for not being able to control the drugs. But I can’t control it. I don’t care what it takes to quit. If I have to go to jail or have a seizure, I don’t care anymore, just help me to stop.” I had tried to stop many times before but had always failed.
So a few weeks after my prayer of utter hopelessness to God, I was back at doing drugs again, this time with the soon to be mother of my children. We used to party together alot and this time something different happened. We were at her house doing lines of cocaine when I looked up from doing my line and there across from me was the devil. I saw his face and it scared the heck out of me. I actually got up without saying a word and ran out of her house. I have no idea what went through her mind at the time and I didn’t care. I was scared that the devil was trying to get me. I got in my car and raced home. I jumped out of the car and sped into the house. Locking the door behind me, I ran through the house, shutting all the blinds and curtains. Then taking the telephone off the hook, I crawled into bed, scared to death.
The next day I thought, “I have to quit now, that was horrible.” I called one of my using buddies to see if he wanted to quit with me. He said,” come over we’ll talk about it”.
On the way to his house a miracle happened. Some guy was hitchhiking on the road to my buddy’s house, I never pick up hitchhikers but for some reason, I pulled over. Then the entire drug story came out, about how I wanted to quit and was a mess. He was a drug addict and in recovery. We talked and it helped give me some resolve that I could do it. As he got out he tells me, “It’s funny I never hitchhike.”
As it turned out, my friend didn’t want to quit cocaine but the next day I talked to a co- worker about my addiction. He tells me his wife had a terrible problem with cocaine and that’s why he is raising his son alone. She is now in CA, Cocaine Anonymous, and he could have her call me if I wanted. Of course I wanted her to call and she did that night. By the next day I was at a CA meeting and by two weeks later I was through with all drugs and alcohol. They told me in CA that I had to stop using all mind altering substances to completely quit using coke. I didn’t care at this point what it would take and did whatever they told me to do. By the Grace of God, I’ve been clean and sober over 20 years now.
Let’s go back to what doubt and faith say to me about what happened to me.
Faith says, “Your prayer worked, God exists and helped you. He helped you in the most merciful way that would work for you. You didn’t have to lose you home, job, health or go to jail, like some people need. All you needed was to be scared enough to get started. He put a man in your car that never hitchhikes and you never pick up hitchhikers. The man lifted your spirits and gave you hope that it could be done. He led another drug addict to call you and offer a way of out with Cocaine Anonymous. It all worked and you’ve been clean and sober since. God exists and he has proven himself to you again. Have faith in him and he will help.”
Doubt says something all together different,” you never saw the devil, that was just a hallucination, nothing but a hallucination caused by the drugs. It was all a coincidence with that hitchhiker and the other drug addict calling you, that doesn’t mean or prove anything. And yes you’ve been clean and sober now for awhile because you could have controlled it all along. It’s all you, there is no God helping you.
Faith has something to say about this point of view, “well since it was all you, go ahead a have a drink and see what happens. If you don’t have faith that God did it for you when you couldn’t, he will show you again but it will be a painful lesson, just like last time. Do you want that pain? Why would you, you already know the truth.”
I’m not stupid, my drug addiction was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to deal with. Why would I listen to doubt about how great and powerful I am and how I controlled the addiction by myself? When I can listen to faith that there is a God and he has been helping me and will keep helping me. All I have to do is turn my life and will over to him. I’ve been trying my best to do that for a number of years now and my life has improved tremendously. Why would I change what works?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Jaderis, posted 08-15-2007 6:41 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Jaderis, posted 08-15-2007 7:56 PM georgeculolias has replied
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 08-17-2007 3:52 AM georgeculolias has replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 139 of 222 (416443)
08-15-2007 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by georgeculolias
08-15-2007 7:31 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
I am not suggesting you should change what works. That is not the point. I am simply suggesting that there are many, many ways that people transform their lives. Some turn to Buddhism, Kabbalah, Scientology, Islam, meditation, self-help gurus/books or any number of other religions/techniques/people and they all attribute their change to what they find in those religions/techniques/people.
Some turn to themselves (sometimes friends and family, too) and say "I have to change myself" and/or they simply grow out of their destructive behaviors.
I've done alot of drugs and I've seen and done some crazy shit while on them, including cocaine. I've been scared enough doing each and every one of them (including pot...I stopped doing it because it made me way too anxious and it always sent my heart rate spiking to dangerous levels instead of calming me down like it does for most people) to stop using them of my own volition. Sometimes after one or a few uses (K and LSD) and sometimes after long term use (cocaine and E).
I'm not trying to downplay your addiction, maybe I just don't have the "addictive personality," but while I was doing coke I did some very stupid things, not the least of which was spending all of my money and I kept on doing it until I realized how crappy I felt and how stupid it was. I just stopped and I haven't touched it or even thought about doing it in 9 years.
Maybe I didn't hit the bottom hard enough?
I know you derive joy and comfort from feeling that God helped you through all of this, but YOU made the decision and are still making the decision all the same.
And it doesn't answer my question of whether or not you feel that ANY sort of help that presented itelf to you would have drawn you out of your addiction and destructive behavior/feelings. I know you can't "know" but an honest speculation will do.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by georgeculolias, posted 08-15-2007 7:31 PM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by georgeculolias, posted 08-15-2007 8:15 PM Jaderis has replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6065 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 140 of 222 (416451)
08-15-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Jaderis
08-15-2007 7:56 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
I don't understand what you asking me. Can you phrase the question differently? I will surely try and answer your question. Good for you for quitting drugs. I tell my kids now,” why would you want to be different than you are naturally. If you don't like something about yourself or are unhappy, then change it. Of course all the changes in my life, I attribute to God doing all the work and take no credit for any of them. I guess that makes me weak in some people eyes but that's okay with me I used to feel the same way about God people when I was an atheist...All of them were weak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Jaderis, posted 08-15-2007 7:56 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Jaderis, posted 08-15-2007 9:33 PM georgeculolias has replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 141 of 222 (416469)
08-15-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by georgeculolias
08-15-2007 8:15 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
OK...I'll try to rephrase it.
You say that one day you were feeling particularly desperate and you happened upon a Christian tract and you asked God for help. You subsequently started reading the Bible and felt a change in you when confronted by the robber and then you had a scare and met the hitchhiker and started attending CA meetings (forgive me if this sequence is out of order...it's not all that important to the point anyway).
Imagine that instead of that Christian tract you happened upon an Islamic tract expounding on the Forgiveness of Allah. You started reading the Qu'ran and read its enjoinments to forgive and treat people who wrong you with kindness (for example, Surah 41:34 - The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend.) and then you asked Allah to lead you out of your addiction and you befriended a Muslim and former alcoholic in a place you never go to and you started talking with him about Allah's prohibition against any kind of intoxicant and you decide to attend a mosque with him and the religion of Islam along with your new friend bring you the strength to overcome your addiction.
Feel free to substitute any other religion/philosophy in the above example.
The question is how do you know that you wouldn't have just accepted ANY kind of help while in such dire straits?
Sub-question - How do you know it was God at all? How do you know you weren't just ready to change your life and the Christian God just seemed like a good candidate to help you due to coincidence.
Sub-sub question - Why is it that so many people who are "born again" become so only after hitting rock bottom?
Edited by Jaderis, : fixed link...something's kooky with the board today At least on my end

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by georgeculolias, posted 08-15-2007 8:15 PM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by georgeculolias, posted 08-16-2007 1:39 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6065 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 142 of 222 (416495)
08-16-2007 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jaderis
08-15-2007 9:33 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
I reached out to God when I was desperate. Christianity was just MY path at that time. I've since looked into other religions and believe they all point to the same God. You can call him Allah or whatever you want but they are all the same. An idea that there is something out there greater than ourselves and we are it's children. My life's goal now is to get out of the way and let his plan flow through me.
So to answer your first question, yes I think I would have accepted ANY kind of help from God. But to me, the any, is all the same thing.
The second question was, how do I know it was God? Because he has proven himself to me in many, many ways. But like I said in my earlier post, he can only prove himself to me because I asked him to and have an open mind about what the proof is. The proof will NEVER be something that can make a doubter believe. How could there be a choice if there was ironclad proof that could be shown to the world. So then instead of choosing faith of a person's own volition and goodwill it would be forced on them because all mighty God told them to do whatever. But by my faith, that he has proven himself to me, my life has improved. That means something to me. My life was adrift and a mess before I learned there is a God. Now I feel good about myself and my life.
And to your last question, I can only speak for myself. I HAD to hit rock bottom to crack my mind open a little. I would never even consider there was a God while my life was going well. Anything or anyone that mentioned God to me was stupid and I didn't want to hear it. I was in control of my life, why would I want a God? There's no proof so it must all be B.S. But since I was in such pain, I was willing to reach out to anything, even if I thought it was dumb, it was still worth a try. So I reached out and God has been proving himself to me ever since.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jaderis, posted 08-15-2007 9:33 PM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by crashfrog, posted 08-17-2007 1:48 AM georgeculolias has not replied
 Message 149 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 12:12 AM georgeculolias has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 143 of 222 (416625)
08-17-2007 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by georgeculolias
08-16-2007 1:39 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
The proof will NEVER be something that can make a doubter believe.
Then it's not proof, is it?
What you're describing is totally redundant. What use is so-called "evidence" that only convinces the already-convinced? I mean, why even bother? If they're already convinced, why would you need to show them anything?
The people who doubt are the only ones who need proof. Who have any use for it. People who already believe - what need have they for proof? It would just be redundant.
How could there be a choice if there was ironclad proof that could be shown to the world.
What planet do you live on where every human being determines what to believe based on what the evidence supports? I wish I lived on it. Here on Earth, people use all manner of strategies to determine what to believe, and "following the evidence" is the one that relatively few engage in. (Most people use the strategy "what does everybody else around me believe?" which is why there's Republicans.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by georgeculolias, posted 08-16-2007 1:39 AM georgeculolias has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 222 (416637)
08-17-2007 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by georgeculolias
08-15-2007 7:31 PM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
Hello, georgeculolias! Welcome to EvC! You would be surprised at the faith based discussions that we have here!
Many people have had experiences similar to the ones you have had.
When I first came to EvC, and even now, I am challenged to question my faith and the validity of my experiences at every turn. Some initial conclusions that I had I have questioned, and other conclusions I have retained--having stood on my personal impressions and judgements beyond a reasonable doubt and to my own personal satisfaction.
I have spoken with several Theologians whom I respect very much about issues of faith and belief. I have had many debates and arguments concerning faith and belief in general (although I rarely argue much any more) and have rarely if ever knowingly changed anyones mind whom I argued with.
I am responding to you based on my own personal beliefs. Courts of Law accept certain evidence as valid and other evidence as invalid, but the entire field of law itself is ever changing and is based on precedents and on whether or not juries believe beyond a reasonable doubt that an event did or did not occur based on the evidence allowed. Each case is different, however. I read where one recent murder case had been successfully prosecuted due to new allowable evidence that had previously been dismissed as heresay!
The evidence, an overheard verbal comment, was reclassified as an excited utterance and the conclusions of the court had to reflect the evidence allowed.
Many Christians and specifically Biblical Creationists are evidentialists yet their logic will never stand up to critical thinking and basic logic.
Let us again remind ourselves of the title of this thread:
What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence? It depends on the individual. Some folks may think they were knocked down by the Holy Spirit while at a revival meeting and would from that day forward never again dare question their faith regardless of whether they simply fainted, were pushed over, or were even exposed to a form of hypnotic suggestion.
Other folks may have had many experiences in life every bit as valid (relative to their own perceptions) as you ever had, yet these same folks would endlessly question the validity and rationality of their experiences and their personal beliefs.
I used to feel that I had to argue and share and present a case that would somehow convince others that God was indeed knowable. After all, God is knowable to me, within my own mind and heart, and I have accepted my belief and my relationship with God as true and real. I have no need to prove it to anyone since it is logically unprovable, but I am satisfied as to where I stand in regards to my core beliefs.
I don't hang out at in order to validate my faith. This is not a safe place to be if validation by others is sought, nor is this a safe place to be if you consciously or subconsciously wish to convince and/or proselytize others either.
From what I have gathered based on your story, you are simply sharing what has happened to you (or as some would say what you thought happened to you) and are honestly curious as to human reaction to your story! Which is why I am blabbing!
All that I can say to you is this: If the experience which you have had was valid and ifGod is actually real, nothing on earth will ever be able to take that away from you!
People usually fall into several categories after having had a spiritual experience such as yours.
1) They attend a charismatic church which never allows them to question the belief statement shared by the church. This has the effect of stifling any growth in that individuals awareness.
2) They become zealous and go forth attempting to validate their beliefs through numerous scriptural quotations, articles gleaned from places such as Answers In Genesisor C.A.R.M. and are repulsed by the contrasting views found in places such as Positive Atheism or Skeptic Magazine .
My personal philosophy is to examine differing views of other groups of people in order to allow myself to see the divergent ways that people accept, question, and validate the world views that they have.
I am stubborn and dogmatic at times.
I believe that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I often share it with others, but not usually around here at EvC. If you want to hear any of my personal testimony, feel free to email me or catch me in our chatroom some day.
In conclusion, I would like to welcome you to EvC and I hope that you stick around long enough to listen more than you talk. Your faith will be challenged, but if you were to simply hang around at a Christian website such as Theology Web your faith would never be challenged. Likewise, if you hung around a forum such as Internet Infidels You would be challenged as never before and would not find people such as myself there, IMHO. I get tired of never having anyone on earth agree with me, yet I would never want everyone to agree with me either!
I guess it all boils down to how much heat you can handle and how eager you are to challenge the faith that you have! Anyway, welcome aboard! Our requests here are quite simple. We follow the Forum Guidelines whenever possible and we try and be civil with one another while rarely, if ever agreeing entirely!
Edited by Phat, : clarification

Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by georgeculolias, posted 08-15-2007 7:31 PM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by georgeculolias, posted 08-17-2007 11:24 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 1:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6065 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 145 of 222 (416694)
08-17-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
08-17-2007 3:52 AM


Thanks for answering Phat
I can't find your email address here and I just tried the chat. Opps I can't get that to work either. I would like to talk to you about why you don't think different places are safe for me, so can you email me please. georgeculolias@hotmail.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 08-17-2007 3:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 222 (416717)
08-17-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
08-17-2007 3:52 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
Phat writes:
If the experience which you have had was valid and ifGod is actually real, nothing on earth will ever be able to take that away from you!
Patently false. The path from atheism to faith is a two-way street and there are at least as many people going in the opposite direction. (Not everybody reaches the destination of atheism, so your condition of "if God is real" is still satisfied.)
Too many people seize on the first explanation of an "experience", park their brain at the church door and - as you say - nothing can change their minds. But don't kid yourself that that's the only possible outcome.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 08-17-2007 3:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 147 of 222 (416736)
08-17-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by georgeculolias
08-15-2007 3:45 PM


Re: My path from Faith to Atheism
Funny how your story mirrors my own except in the exact opposite direction.
for the first 18 or so years of my life I was very religious with a very strong faith. I went to church and prayed all the time.
Then stuff started to go wrong. My dad got sick and almost died, My mother gave away all their savings to the local church and left us broke. I will never understand that but she claims it made my dad well again.
I started to get into trouble with the law for stuff I hadn't done. I got arrested for a crime that was committed on a motorcycle that I did not own but had somehow become registered to me.
This kind of crap went on for several years,culminating in losing my job, then my house and car to repossession.
I remember asking myself what God had against me. What had I done to deserve all this?
Finally I made a conscious decision to fix everything and fight back. I signed up for college and worked my way through 5 grueling years with a spouse and two very young children, to come out with a science degree.
During this time I learned of the scientific method and all the other things that are needed to pursue a career in the sciences. Gradually God seemed more and more.. unnecessary to me.
I began to realize that the primary reason for all my problems had been that I had believed that by being true to God and doing everything right, somehow He would fix it all.
I had been completely delusional.
Releasing my hold on this imaginary friend was the turning point in my life. Relegating God to the same position held by Santa Claus and the Tooth fairy freed me to put my life back together.
No more would I rely on some fictional or mythological character to fix things for me. If something had to be done I would damn well do it myself.
God hadn't made bad stuff happen to me.
My own weakness had done that.
Using God as a crutch to lean on had been like using a support that simply wasn't there. I had fallen down without ever even knowing it.
These days I am doing pretty good without the need for any kind of god at all.
Kicking his imaginary ass to the curb was the best decision I ever made.
Like Ringo said, it goes both ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by georgeculolias, posted 08-15-2007 3:45 PM georgeculolias has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by pbee, posted 08-17-2007 7:16 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 148 of 222 (416774)
08-17-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by PurpleYouko
08-17-2007 2:59 PM


Re: My path from Faith to Atheism
I am happy to see people tell of there experiences like PurpleYouko. It provide us with some valuable lessons to be learned and useful points to consider.
I think your story illustrate some very concerning facts about God and religion. I would seem as though your family was victimized by religious dishonesty. In this case leading you into a position of desperation and despair. I wonder though, has it ever occurred to you that religions which put people into such positions stand in direct opposition to God? How often has God told people to get up off the ground and stop being pathetic? Didn't Jesus become enraged when he found religious leaders profiting in the name of God? So why is it then that we have so many people(eyes glazed) putting faith into such fraudulent arrangements?
A man named Paul once wrote a statement which was applicable to such situations. He said, "They would publicly declare they know God, but in reality they would disown him by their works. In another statement, Peter warned that false teachers would quietly bring in destructive sects and disown even the owner that bought them. Their bad conduct, he said, would cause people to speak abusively about the way of the truth.
So it should comes as no surprise today that the world is littered with such cases. We have fraudulent TV evangelist making a mockery of God and miracles. Churches selling Godly favors by the pound. Religious enterprises rampant with sexual molestation and the list goes on and on.
I have seen all to many people claiming to live in God's ways only to end up walking around like mindless drones claiming that God is directing their every step. For the record, God is not a Fairy nor is He is not some innocent child floating in the clouds. The scriptures describe Him as the absolute authority over all things. A ruler and enforcer of divine law. It is quite obvious that many religions today are not in accordance with God.
I'm happy to hear you have taken the initiative and improved your lifestyle. It was clearly better than the path you were on previously. I say, to anyone seeking to serve God, go and seek him out on your own! The age of religious icons dangling the keys to eternal life have long past.
No matter what we say or do, we are all just passing through this place. For those wanting more in life, then by all means, find your way. For those satisfied with a single round, then that's your God given right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-17-2007 2:59 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 149 of 222 (416809)
08-18-2007 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by georgeculolias
08-16-2007 1:39 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
george writes:
How could there be a choice if there was ironclad proof that could be shown to the world. So then instead of choosing faith of a person's own volition and goodwill it would be forced on them because all mighty God told them to do whatever.
Why do you feel it is necessary or good for God to hide in the shadows and require "faith" in believing all sorts of extraordinary unbelievable stuff without "ironclad" evidence? Sounds like a great way to have a lot of confused, conflicting and disparate religious ideologies ... oh wait that is just what we have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by georgeculolias, posted 08-16-2007 1:39 AM georgeculolias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by georgeculolias, posted 08-18-2007 12:30 AM iceage has replied
 Message 158 by pbee, posted 08-18-2007 2:01 AM iceage has replied

  
georgeculolias
Junior Member (Idle past 6065 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 150 of 222 (416812)
08-18-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by iceage
08-18-2007 12:12 AM


Re: My path from Atheism to faith
If there was "ironclad proof" how is there choice and freewill? Let’s say it was somehow proven that God exists to a doubter, that doesn't want to believe. Now he had better do what God says or else. That is not freewill or choice, that is coercion and force. God wants us to learn how to choose the right things without coercion or force but because it is in our God given nature and he stands ready to help us choose if we can open our minds to him. I've found he has helped me, and to me the proof of his existence is in the results of how I choose to live my life

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 12:12 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by sidelined, posted 08-18-2007 12:39 AM georgeculolias has replied
 Message 152 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 12:43 AM georgeculolias has replied
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 08-18-2007 1:12 AM georgeculolias has replied

  
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