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Author Topic:   Evolutionary Advantage of guilt.
PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 17 (179677)
01-22-2005 2:28 PM


alright so why do we feel guilt... the evolutionary advantage of guilt not "because God wants us to feel bad for doing bad things."
in my opinion i think that we feel guilt because when we do feel guilty it is usualy because we killed/hurt something/someone, we stole something, we lied, we had an affair,etc.
the purpose of feeling an unpleasing stimuli is to keep us from continuing to do the task. this might be to keep us from, lets say you are stealing money from your room mate. because you migt be caught stealing from your room mate or he/she might become suspicous. so thouse who felt guilt must have avoided doing risky things to acheive more... and maybe because of that they were liked more so they had less enemies/rivals and being liked by the group must have meant that they wouldn't get a club in the back of the head while out hunting or gathering.
just my suggestions post your suggestions here and maybe we can figure this out... if it has been figured out then teach please so we can find anny holes in it and test the crap outta it >_<

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 17 (180159)
01-24-2005 10:18 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 3 of 17 (180317)
01-24-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PerfectDeath
01-22-2005 2:28 PM


I think you pretty much answered the question yourself in the OP. I'm not an expert in psychology or sociology, but thinking intuitively it seems obvious to me that humans are very dependant on each other as a species. As individuals we're neither the strongest or fastest animals, so we need to work together as a group.
Groups need some level of trust to work, and untrustworthy individuals are likely to be "unfit" from an evolutionary standpoint because they will be shunned in the group. This means that individuals who are capable of recognising when they have done something wrong will have an advantage over those who can't recognise this, as they can make amends and make sure they don't do it again.
I'd be interested in knowing wether other species exhibit signs of guilt or remorse. If what I said is anything close to accurate then I expect that species that have complex social networks such as apes/monkeys or dolphins will be more likely to display it than solitary animals. Does anyone know of any such studies, and what the results are?
Again i'm no expert in this so my explanation is just an educated (I hope) guess

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PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 17 (180365)
01-24-2005 11:46 PM


your gess is as good as mine
well i'm still in highschool so my gess is not really educated.
well i googled the topic and read the breif description each hit came up with and it seemed to say that it is an advantage to keep interspecal aggression... that way we can focus on killing other species instead of eachother... till someone bangs ur wife. Then it's on! >_<

  
PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 17 (180616)
01-25-2005 9:38 PM


hmmm
sorry for the double post but i gess this topic was answered... damng i wanted a debate.
well if all else fails to get a debate started... LET THE CREATIONISTS IN!! >_<

Replies to this message:
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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 6 of 17 (180739)
01-26-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PerfectDeath
01-25-2005 9:38 PM


Re: hmmm
I'm not too sure what the creationists could say on the subject. Obviously they won't think guilt is an evolutionary trait anymore than they think anything else is, but the only way they could argue against it is to say that guilt isn't useful to us. I'd be surprised if they think that though.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Quetzal, posted 01-26-2005 8:43 AM happy_atheist has replied
 Message 12 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-27-2005 4:05 AM happy_atheist has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 7 of 17 (180750)
01-26-2005 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by happy_atheist
01-26-2005 8:01 AM


Re: hmmm
Hi H_A:
I'm not sure you're giving creationists enough credit for their inventiveness. My guess is the response would be something along the lines of: God gave us guilt so we'd know when we sinned (or words to that effect).

This message is a reply to:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 8 of 17 (180755)
01-26-2005 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PerfectDeath
01-22-2005 2:28 PM


quote:
in my opinion i think that we feel guilt because when we do feel guilty it is usualy because we killed/hurt something/someone, we stole something, we lied, we had an affair,etc.
I disagree. All of the behaviors you mentioned can confer a selective benefit on the perpetrator. Game theory or competition theory would suggest that some asocial (ethically defined) are beneficial but ONLY if the level of say cheating is low and the level of fair play etc. is much higher. Sort of like mimicry. If everyone lies, cheats, kills then there is no society. Perhaps feelings of guilt are a social mechanism for insuring that those behaviors are rare and thus society can function...sort of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PerfectDeath, posted 01-22-2005 2:28 PM PerfectDeath has replied

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 Message 11 by PerfectDeath, posted 01-26-2005 10:58 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 9 of 17 (180838)
01-26-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mammuthus
01-26-2005 8:59 AM


Mammuthus writes:
Perhaps feelings of guilt are a social mechanism for insuring that those behaviors are rare and thus society can function...sort of.
Well i'm certain that what makes a specific individual feel guilty will be based on societal factors, but the actual chemistry of guilt in the brain will be totally seperate to that. I think it is this aspect that the OP was getting at, then once the feeling is in place in the brain it can then be utilised by the society.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by contracycle, posted 01-27-2005 4:21 AM happy_atheist has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 10 of 17 (180839)
01-26-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Quetzal
01-26-2005 8:43 AM


Re: hmmm
Yes, i'm sure that they would say exactly that. I would if I was one. I wasn't quite clear with what I meant though
I meant to imply that there would be little a creationist could do to make guilt look bad for evolution, because the advantages for it are clear imho.

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PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 17 (180984)
01-26-2005 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mammuthus
01-26-2005 8:59 AM


well yes i suck at wording things together and never seem to get every bit of info in what i say. but thats why this topic was made: so people could tear it to bits and throw in their ideas so be can peice it together in a more understanding way.
i gess the scientific theory could be simplified to that... then again i'm probably missing info in what i just said .
well tear away.

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 Message 8 by Mammuthus, posted 01-26-2005 8:59 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
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TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 17 (181017)
01-27-2005 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by happy_atheist
01-26-2005 8:01 AM


A ceationist might consider guilt to be a gift from God to help prevent us from leading lives that ultimately land us in Hell as well as lives that continually hurt those around us (the feelings can definitely be overridden, though).
It is easy enough to look at something and say, "Oh, it is beneficial; therefore, it must be an evolved trait." But, actually, evolution can allow for both beneficial or negative traits (and for that matter, an all-powerful Creator can create both good and evil); so, that is not a good test at all. How would such a test be able to distinguish the evolved from the designed or created?
As a creationist, I am curious as to how science could account for the development of feelings such as guilt within the evolution paradigm.
Are such feelings unique to man? (As a creationist, I would expect that they are; we being the creatures with the knowledge of good and evil.) Do other societal animals--like sheep, wolves, deer, cattle, monkeys, flocking birds, schooling fish, bees, etc.--experience guilt?
What random mutations would have to occur to lead from a non-guilt-feeling group of organisms to guilt-feeling group of organisms? Can it be demonstrated, with any science we have today, that these mutations did indeed take place?
Are there genes, which code for guilty feelings? Which genes? How do these genes cause the individual to be capable of feeling guilt?
Can evolutionists distinguish between fossils of the non-guilt-feeling organisms and the guilt-feeling organisms? Or can they say, "Oh, guilt began to evolve in the Ordovician?"
Just some thoughts as I ponder this idea of guilt in light of the EvC debate.
--TL

This message is a reply to:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 17 (181022)
01-27-2005 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by happy_atheist
01-26-2005 1:49 PM


quote:
Well i'm certain that what makes a specific individual feel guilty will be based on societal factors, but the actual chemistry of guilt in the brain will be totally seperate to that. I think it is this aspect that the OP was getting at, then once the feeling is in place in the brain it can then be utilised by the society.
That does not follow, as far as I can see. What wrong with an adaptation that specifically facilitates pack behaviour? I don't see any reason to speculativiely nominate some other influence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by happy_atheist, posted 01-26-2005 1:49 PM happy_atheist has replied

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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 14 of 17 (181026)
01-27-2005 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by PerfectDeath
01-26-2005 10:58 PM


My own familiarity with the subject is tenuous so I am just putting out ideas/opinions. Does not make them right so I have nothing I can really tear away at

This message is a reply to:
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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 15 of 17 (181070)
01-27-2005 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by contracycle
01-27-2005 4:21 AM


Sorry, my bad explanation again. What I meant was the first emergence of the feeling in the brain wouldn't be forced to appear from societal pressure (or would it?), it would come from some random mutation and then be formed by the societal pressure into whatever form it took.

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