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Author Topic:   War in Iraq, is there a point?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 91 of 308 (235759)
08-22-2005 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by randman
08-22-2005 9:52 PM


Re: dangers of wmd (a,k.a americans living in a dream world)
Faith, Mick's sort of thinking is what led leftists to give our military secrets to Stalin, thinking helping to balance the power was a good thing.
He seems to think America is the enemy.
Yup, these guys are LEFTISTS with a capital L, and most of them don't even know it. They've bought the straight Communist line though they think Communism is dead. The portrait of America they've bought was consciously propagandized BY the Communist Party in this country in the 30s and later by their children, the New Left of the 60s. Wish we could shake some sense into them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by randman, posted 08-22-2005 9:52 PM randman has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 92 of 308 (235760)
08-22-2005 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
08-22-2005 9:58 PM


Re: dangers of wmd (a,k.a americans living in a dream world)
It doesn't even seem to occur to some that whereas maybe the Iraq war is not worth it for us, getting rid of Saddam could be a good thing for Iraq.
Of course, if Iraqis vote in an Islamic type of government, they are just hurting themselves, and it will have been somewhat in vain, but in some ways that's not our fault. The people have to want freedom bad enough to get rid of the mullahs and their extremist rhetoric.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 9:58 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 308 (235763)
08-22-2005 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Yaro
08-22-2005 9:46 PM


Re: TOPIC
I wasn't going to join in this thread because I haven't followed all the arguments pro and con the war, but then it looks like I'm not in much worse shape in that regard than most others here, and the conservative side can always use all the help we can get. However, I am a reader of David Horowitz's Front Page Magazine and they are always running articles, mostly opinion but usually with many references, on the Iraq war, so I would recommend going there for the conservative, or Neo-Con view of the war:
David Horowitz, Why We Are In Iraq
Symposium, Guerilla War in Iraq?
And more where those came from:
GOOGLE SEARCH: "Why war in Iraq" Front Page articles only

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 Message 88 by Yaro, posted 08-22-2005 9:46 PM Yaro has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 94 of 308 (235771)
08-22-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by randman
08-22-2005 10:07 PM


American motives
It doesn't even seem to occur to some that whereas maybe the Iraq war is not worth it for us, getting rid of Saddam could be a good thing for Iraq.
America always has operated from noble motives more than any other nation on this earth, but here we are smeared as having nothing but evil motives instead. They can't even seem to IMAGINE noble motives, even noble motives while possibly being WRONG, which could raise useful criticism, but no, on the Left it's all straight-out Hate America condemnation, and they really don't have any idea where they got it either.
Of course, if Iraqis vote in an Islamic type of government, they are just hurting themselves, and it will have been somewhat in vain, but in some ways that's not our fault. The people have to want freedom bad enough to get rid of the mullahs and their extremist rhetoric.
I have to admit that I have not agreed with Bush from the very beginning that democracy is possible in Iraq. All the celebration about the election just seemed futile to me. Sure there are Muslims who want democracy, and nice to see that there were so many, but as long as enough of them would rather have fundamental Islam and are willing to die for it I think it's a lost cause. I agree with you that we haven't taken a hard enough stand. If THEY want democracy fine to help them, but if WE have to make it happen it isn't going to happen. From my point of view Bush got off on the wrong foot when he declared Islam a "religion of peace." Declare some Muslims peaceful, fine, and after 9/11 I understand why he wanted to support American Muslims, but Islam is both a religion of peace and a religion of murder and simply to call it the one and ignore the other is as good as inviting more terrorism.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-22-2005 10:28 PM

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 Message 96 by GDR, posted 08-22-2005 10:56 PM Faith has replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 308 (235776)
08-22-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
08-22-2005 10:27 PM


Re: American motives
quote:
... on the Left it's all straight-out Hate America condemnation, and they really don't have any idea where they got it either.
Bull. It is "I've read the Declaration of Independence and it puts tears my eyes to see what has become of those ideals" condemnation. I happen to adore the government that was set up in the US Constitution and what we have now is a bastardized version of it.
A man named Juan Cole, a history professor, commenting on the Iraqi attempts to draw up a constitution, suggested that they use ours. It was written two hundred years ago by some really smart men, and we aren't using it anymore.
It makes me sad.

No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 10:27 PM Faith has replied

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 96 of 308 (235777)
08-22-2005 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
08-22-2005 10:27 PM


Re: American motives
Just a couple of thoughts. First off we will never really know for sure whether the invasion was the better course of action or not as we will only know the result of what did happen and not what might have happened.
Rightly or wrongly the US is in Iraq now and the only reasonable course of action now is to see this thing through. I believe that by not supporting the troops now is only likely to cause more bloodshed, both American, British and Iraqi. I also tend to think that it will be a seen as a sign of weakness by terrorists and make the west more vulnerable to terrorism.
Much of the western world resents American success and power. I think that frankly is pretty sad. I think it is the equivalent of some multi millionaire being resentful of the wealth of Bill Gates.
It does seem to me that there must be a good reason for the success and power of the US, and one of the reasons is the degree of freedom that Americans have. Many Americans, Canadians and Brits etc have died for the freedom of others. Freedom is worth fighting and dying for whether it be for our own freedom or for the freedom of others.
I don't imagine any one doubts that there has been mistakes made in US foreign policy, but on balance the world is a much better and safer place because of the US. Even in the middle east there is finely some improvement in the situation there. Libya has come around. The Saudis are actually doing something to make life more difficult for terrorists. Israel is pulling out of Gaza. Palestinian radicals are less militant than they were and they are losing strength politically.
The UN has proven itself to be corrupt and ineffectual. There is only one major power left in the world and it's the USA. Thank heavens it isn't the USSR or nazi Germany, and from my own Canadian perspective, I'm grateful that it is our next door neighbour and best friend.

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 Message 94 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 10:27 PM Faith has replied

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1262 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 97 of 308 (235789)
08-22-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tal
08-22-2005 3:00 PM


Correction. The coalition (not coalation) are killing Iraqis.
You're buying into the media Tal. The media reports American and coalition casualties but they don't report Iraqi civilian deaths.
You never thought about that?
quote:
FAIR writes that, "According to a study published in the respected British medical journal The Lancet [October 29, 2004], about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war. The majority of deaths were due to violence, primarily as a result of U.S.-led military action," although "one of the researchers on the project said that the estimate is likely a conservative one," according to the October 29, 2004, New York Times.
FAIR concludes that "It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media."
Operation Iraqi Freedom: Iraqi casualties - SourceWatch
So 100,000 and beyond...
True, Suddam killed thousands. But so have we.
Make sure you read that paragraph from the article.
As Donald Rumsfeld pronounced his "optimistic" report of 12 years in the war on terror.
How many more deaths Tal?
Or do they not count because they're Iraqis?
So this insurgency was killing Iraqis before the Iraq war?
No, this insurgency didn't exist before the Iraq war.
And it's dishonest to say that the insurgency is the cause of Iraqi civilian deaths. That's simply not true.
We're creating more "enemies" Tal.
Have you ever seen "Battle of Algiers".
If not, go rent that film.
Maybe this will effect you when I say this.
American mistreatment of POW's is a disgraqce.
It's a flatout disgrace.
What makes you think, if you were detained that you would be treated nicely when Americans kill innocents at Guantanomo Bay.
Do you know there are over 5000 detainees there and only 5 have been charged with a crime.
Is that right Tal?
All this sin is a result of the Iraq war.
Rethink your position please.
It's not christian-like.
Jesus Christ said love thy enemy.
Jesus Christ said love thy enemy, Tal.
Our God said that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tal, posted 08-22-2005 3:00 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 98 of 308 (235790)
08-22-2005 11:26 PM


The war is understood in the conmtext of the big picture
To understand the war in Iraq, which is a response to 9/11, one has to consider the big picture. So bear with me before I mention Iraq.
Islamism is the name for the worldwide movement of Muslims believing that they have been ordered by Allah in the Koran to conquer all the world for him, to be ruled by an Islamic caliphate. Afghanistan under the Taliban was their ideal. Throughout islamic history, beginning with its founding in the 7th century, the branch of Islam called Islamism has been both ascendant and descendant, but more the latter. That is how the faith spread very quickly under Mohammed himself; that is, by the sword in Allah's name, as proscibed by the Koran's Sword Verses (aka War Verses). Leaving what is now Saudi Arabia, Mohammed made it as far as Africa, and, for perspective, also conquered what is now Israel - pushing out the Christians and indigenous Jews. That is also how the Islamic empire conquered Spain (Andalusia) a few centuries later, the Christian based Constantinople, and by the 1600's was at the gates of Vienna.
This Islamic empire became based in Turkey and known as the Ottoman Empire, which had a calipahte. But with its collapse after WW 1, the caliphate fell, along with Islamist dreams of a worldwide islamist rule. In its place other, more fundamentalist, islamist movements arose, principally Sunni. The Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia had actually risen in the 1700's, but oil money gave them a chance to become prominent after the Ottoman's collapse. That is how Wahabbism became strong in many Islamic countries, and even in north America where most Islamic organizations and congregations are wahabbi controlled. Given the ties between wahabbism and Islamism, that is scary. (Several founduing members of CAIR, the most prominent NA Islamic organization, have been jailed for terrorist related activities.) An offshoot of Wahabbism, The Egyptian Brotherhood, also became prominent, in the 1920's. It has been held back through Egyptian government brutality, but is always there (not that they wouldn't be every bit or more brutal if they gained power). The Iranian revolution in 1979 was a Shia Islamist movement. There's much more, but that will do for now.
By the time of 9/11, Islamism was on the march. It had 3 states, Afghhanistan, Iran, and Sudan, and was a growing and powerful 5th column in mnay others. They even had one of their own at Pakistan's nuclear button, and who was disseminating nuclear technolgy to enemies of freedom in North korea, iran, libya and elsewhere. The plan was to take over Islamic nations, then everyone else. The first part was happening, but the Islamists faced two serious obstacles. First, a US military presence in various Muslim nations, like Iraq and saudi Arabia (bin laden's principle explanation for 9/11). Second, the lure of democracy, an ideology ever so much more appealing, ultimately, than their own.
At the same time that the Islamists wanted the US out of their way, so did the secular ba'athists in Iraq and Syria. Their dream was to put down the Islamists and set off an Arab nationalist movement. Indeed, hussein spoke often about being a modern day Saladdin, a unifier of Arab peoples under his imperial power. And thus, we see why Hussein and the Islamists, despite despising one another, worked together to get the US out - before they'd turn on one another later on. Hussein, in fact, housed many Islamists, including the key planner of the first WTC bombing of '93. There is now new evidence that Hussein was also involved in 9/11, and that Czech intelligence was, afterall, accurate in their report of a meeting between an important Hussein man and Mohammed Atta in their nation.
The US, after 9/11, had to defeat not only the Sunni and Shia Islamists, but also had to offer Muslim peoples governed by authoritarian governments, like Hussein's, an alternative to Islamism - democracy.
Okay, so why Iraq?
There had to be a starting point to accomplish the necessary aims. Iraq was that natural point for several reasons. First, Bush was properly worried that hussein would, as soon as he would be free of sanctions, regain nuclear capability and other WMD. (Because of all sorts of secret multi-billion dollar deals, the germans, french and russians were actively working to break down sanctions, and were undermining any final UN resolution for war against him.) People forget that Bush spoke of "pre-emptive action." In other words, Hussein and his kind had to be stopped BEFORE they became too powerful. Second, intelligence the world over believed he already had some WMD. Given that he probably had, and probably would in future regardless, cooperate with islamist terrorists - maybe even giving them a suitcase bomb - he could not be allowed to get powerful. Third, the US and GB had had to maintain a very costly, ongoing protection of the Iraqi Kurds. That would have been pretty much forever as long as hussein or his sons were in charge. Fourth, Hussein could be counted on, again, to invade neighbours. As I mentioned before, the US had troops in Saudi Arabia. They stayed after Gulf War 1 to protect the saudis - and, to repeat, was bin Laden's principle reason given for 9/11. After Hussein was defeated, the US began withdrawing troops from there. Fifth - and please note, this was the main reason Bush gave for the war - Hussein had not complied with the truce conditions of Gulf War 1, and had ignored some 15 UN orders to comply. The bill that Bush presented, and which congress approved, stated this. WMD was barely mentioned, and was clearly secondary. In fact, the whole WMD argument came up not only after the issue of non-compliance with UN resolutions, but even after Bush had made 3 speeches in which he argued that democracy was necessary to defeat Islamism. The WMD argument came up for Blair, who was having a hard time getting support from his own party for the war.
The plan, then, was to get Hussein out and create a democracy that would germinate a democratic revolution in Arabia. In turn, that would defeat a serious potential enemy, Huseein, defeat Islamism with democracy, and have authoritarian states gradually also displaced by democracy. That is why Bush, in a major US policy reversal, said that the age of the US supporting authoritarian states in the name of stability was over (that had mainly be done to defeat Communism). The US, he said, realized that having done that only engendered animosity towards the US amongst Arab peoples, and made Islamism, rather than democracy, the people's favoured alternative to democracy in their desire to see authoritarian governments displaced.
Has it worked?
Well, aside from that hussein is no longer terrorizing a whole state and will not get hold of atomic bonmbs or otherwise help terrorists, or invade neighbouring nations, there's this: A shocking Pew poll taken in many Arab nations released last month, showed that since the Iraq war Arabs have come to favour democracy. And, they have not only begun to reject Islamism, but they have come to see bin laden as a loser, rather than as the winner they saw him beforehand.
I know many are concerned that the iraqi constitution will only create an islamist state. That doesn't appear to be the case. The latest information - and it's not confirmed - is that Islam will be A SOURCE of law, not THE SOURCE, which the Islamists wanted. Second, rights, including women's rights, are specifically enshrined that. If they're to be abided, that will ensure a more benign interpretation of Islamic law. Third, there's to be a referendum. If women are concerned, and Iraqi women's groups have been following this closely, they may be able to defeat the proposed constitution. Fourth, I am assuming there's an amending clause. If so, and if it doesn't make it too difficult, there can be changes in future. The key is that govermnets stand and fall democratically.
I realize that there's much more to be said, but other posters, like Tal, Faith, Fair Witness, and one or two others whose names elude me momentarily (sorry about that), have done an excellent job making those points.

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 08-22-2005 11:42 PM CanadianSteve has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 308 (235791)
08-22-2005 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by CanadianSteve
08-22-2005 11:26 PM


What does Iraq have to do with 9-11???????
The terrorists got their training in the US, Wales, England, France, Germany, Spain.
The planning was done in Spain, Greece, England, Indionesia, the US, Germany and France.
The terrorists came from just about everywhere except Iraq.
Funding? Same story.
What did 9-11 have to do with Iraq?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 100 of 308 (235792)
08-22-2005 11:46 PM


Terrorism won't end any time soon

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 101 of 308 (235794)
08-22-2005 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by John
08-22-2005 10:50 PM


Re: American motives
Your post is absolutely devoid of content. I have no idea what you are saying. I feel exactly the same way about our institutions as you describe. They've been bastardized by the Left. But I suppose you HAVE the Leftist view of them.

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6518 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 102 of 308 (235795)
08-23-2005 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
08-22-2005 11:50 PM


Left v. Right B*ll Sh*t
I'm sorry I started this thread. I should have known it would have degenerated into name calling.
Can you so called right-wing people realize that we are all americans and just because someone on the so called left-wing dosn't agree with you, it dosn't mean they hate the US, or are traitors, or some other idiotic crap.
It pisses me off to hear people on either side treating the other side like dirt just cuz they don't hold the same views. This jingoistic America first crap has to go.
I think the words of Mark Twain sumed it up best (heck, which of his words don't):
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 11:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Monk
Member (Idle past 3946 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 103 of 308 (235796)
08-23-2005 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Yaro
08-22-2005 9:46 PM


Re: TOPIC
Yaro writes:
The focus is simple, WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE WAR?
Can anyone give a straight answer and back it up?
I'll try Yaro, if the reasons for going to war in Iraq were nice and simple so that they could be summarized in one or two sentences. Then it would have already been posted.
It’s easy to be critical, like saying, No WMD’s, no basis for war. That’s a short phrase, easy to write on a protest poster, and easy to understand. Unfortunately, it doesn’t tell the story.
Here is part of an article from the Weekly Standard written by Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol. Both are right wing conservatives. I believe the article has a good rationale for the war and there is also a bit of a history review. I’ve posted a portion of the full summary which goes to the heart of the argument. I've tried to be brief and include only what I consider the relevant points from a much longer article.
Why We Went to War
From the October 20, 2003 issue: The case for the war in Iraq, with testimony from Bill Clinton.
by Robert Kagan & William Kristol
10/20/2003, Volume 009, Issue 06
Weekly Standard
The Bush administration's threat of war beginning last summer led France and Russia to reverse themselves and to start taking the Iraq weapons issue seriously again. In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the Security Council agreed on a new round of inspections, during which Saddam was to do finally what he had promised to do back in 1991 and ever since: make a clean breast of all his programs, answer all the unanswered questions about his admitted stockpiles of weapons, and fully disarm. Resolution 1441 demanded that, within 30 days, Iraq provide "a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems.
Iraq did not comply with this demand within 30 days--or, for that matter, within 90. In his March 6, 2003, report to the U.N. Security Council, Hans Blix reported that the declared stocks of anthrax and VX remained unaccounted for. In the last chance given to Iraq by Resolution 1441, Iraq had failed to provide answers. As Blix reported again in May 2003, "little progress was made in the solution of outstanding issues....the long list of proscribed items unaccounted for and as such resulting in unresolved disarmament issues was not shortened either by the inspections or by Iraqi declarations and documentation."
This is why George W. Bush and Tony Blair and Jose Maria Aznar led their governments and a host of others to war to remove the Saddam Hussein regime in March 2003. It was not, in the first instance, to democratize the Middle East, although we have always believed and still believe that the building of a democratic Iraq, if the United States succeeds in doing so, will have a positive impact on the Arab world. It was not to increase the chances of an Arab-Israeli peace, although we still believe that the removal of a dangerous radical tyrant like Saddam Hussein may make that difficult task somewhat easier. It was not because we believed Saddam Hussein had ordered the September 11 attack, although we believe the links between Saddam and al Qaeda are becoming clearer every day. Nor did the United States and its allies go to war because we believed that some quantity of "yellowcake" was making its way from Niger to Iraq, or that Saddam was minutes away from launching a nuclear weapon against Chicago. We never believed the threat from Saddam was "imminent" in that sense.
The reason for war, in the first instance, was always the strategic threat posed by Saddam because of his proven record of aggression and barbarity, his admitted possession of weapons of mass destruction, and the certain knowledge of his programs to build more. It was the threat he posed to his region, to our allies, and to core U.S. interests that justified going to war this past spring, just as it also would have justified a Clinton administration decision to go to war in 1998. It was why Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, William Cohen, and many other top officials had concluded in the late 1990s that Saddam Hussein was an intolerable menace to his neighbors, to American allies, and ultimately to the United States itself, and therefore had eventually to be removed. It was also why a large number of Democrats, including John Kerry and General Wesley Clark, expressed support for the war last year, before Howard Dean and his roaring left wing of the Democratic party made support for "Bush's war" untenable for Democratic candidates.
NOTHING THAT HAS OR HAS NOT BEEN discovered in Iraq since the end of the war changes this fundamental judgment. Those who always objected to the rationale for the war want to use the failure so far to discover large caches of weapons to re-litigate the question. Democrats fearful of their party's left wing are using it to jump off the positions they held last year. That's politics. But back in the real world, the fact that David Kay's inspections teams have not yet found out what happened to Saddam's admitted stockpiles is not surprising. U.N. weapons inspectors did not find those caches of weapons in 12 years; Kay and his team have had about four months.
Yes, we wish Saddam had left his chemical munitions and biological weapons neatly stacked up in a warehouse somewhere marked on the outside with a big, yellow skull and crossbones. We wish he had published his scientists' nuclear designs in the daily paper. Or we wish we could find the "Dear Diary" entry where he explains exactly what happened to all the weapons he built. But he did not leave these helpful hints behind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Yaro, posted 08-22-2005 9:46 PM Yaro has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 308 (235797)
08-23-2005 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Yaro
08-23-2005 12:09 AM


Re: Left v. Right B*ll Sh*t
Very well said.
I'd go one step further and say that Americans should understand what America really is and has done, not just what they might wish it was.
America is not, nor has it been, always moral. We need to understand that and look to make sure such behavior does not happen in the future.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6518 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 105 of 308 (235799)
08-23-2005 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Monk
08-23-2005 12:13 AM


Re: TOPIC
Monk,
While I have problems with some points in the article, it clearly expresses one side of the story. I really appreciate this post. This is the sort of thing I would like to see discussed on this thread.
Thank you

This message is a reply to:
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