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Author
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Topic: Free will, perfection and limits on god
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 91 of 248 (200496)
04-19-2005 6:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by sidelined
02-22-2005 11:15 PM
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Re: Looking for a second step.
Don't give science and logic too much credit, Sidelined.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by sidelined, posted 02-22-2005 11:15 PM | | sidelined has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Re: he did
Vercingetorix writes: the angels are perfect beings with free will (if you accept free will). i do not think there is free will. i am more of a fan of pre-destiny. God is omnipitent (sp?). this IMHO kills free will What is your post in response to? Also, omnipotence does not rule out free will, but omniscience does (logically).
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 93 of 248 (200503)
04-19-2005 6:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by jar
02-24-2005 6:44 PM
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Re: Out of the fog but into the mineshaft.
jar writes: One thing often mentioned is All Powerful. Well, I'm not sure how something like that could ever be tested. However, any being who could create this universe is so much more powerful than man that I guess All Powerful is an apt description. Or because omnipotence is an illogical state (logically), and that is why it cannot be tested. Also, a creator could also be just powerful enough to create the universe, but still not be all-powerful, thus conceivably still remaining "logical."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 6:44 PM | | jar has not replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 94 of 248 (200506)
04-19-2005 6:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by jar
02-25-2005 9:07 AM
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Re: Still struggling
jar writes: If mankind was a goal, then based on the fact that we find millions of different critters have existed other than man and that 99.many9's% of the history of this earth there weren't even any men, we would have to conclude that GOD was illogical. That doesn't quite follow. If humankind was a goal of creation (meaning there were other goals), why do you seem to think that humans must be the first goal? Perhaps God wanted us to have a large fossil record and other things that took tons of time to produce to observe and think about. I think God is still logical in this light. Do you agree?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by jar, posted 02-25-2005 9:07 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 6:55 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Still struggling
No, not really. He would also be pretty inconsistent and very juvenile. A GOD that can imagine the universe would be pretty silly if he created billions of critters that lived over billions of years just to provide a conundrum for humanity.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 6:47 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 96 of 248 (200560)
04-19-2005 10:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by jar
02-26-2005 12:23 AM
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Re: Sure hope this doesn't take 40 years: LOL
jar writes: If mankind was not a specific goal but just one of the outcomes, products of the system, there is no reason to expect mankind to be perfect. You seem to be implying that God had specific goals for the evolutionary system God created. If this is so, then shouldn't you state whether God is creating exactly according to God's will?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by jar, posted 02-26-2005 12:23 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 10:26 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 97 of 248 (200562)
04-19-2005 10:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 96 by QBert14000
04-19-2005 10:21 PM
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Re: Sure hope this doesn't take 40 years: LOL
I'm not sure I understand your question? In fact, I'm PDS that I don't understand your question! LOL
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 10:21 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 98 of 248 (200564)
04-19-2005 10:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by jar
03-11-2005 2:50 PM
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Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar writes: It is an article of Christian belief that Jesus, although he assumed human form for thirty years or so, is still GOD. No it's not. The Holy Trinity is believed by SOME Christians, not all.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 2:50 PM | | jar has not replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 99 of 248 (200571)
04-19-2005 11:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by jar
03-11-2005 6:48 PM
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Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar writes: It would mean that everything that lived before Jesus had no purpose. From a Theological Perspective, that attitude has always been one of the weakest arguments put forward by Creationists. For it to be true, they have to resort to gymnastics such as "Well, they were there to prepare the environment for Humans!". Nonsense. That would prove a GOD who was incapable of creating an environment directly, hardly more than a street hustler. I do not see how the scenario proves what you say it does. Just because God chose not to do something doesn't mean that God couldn't have done it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 6:48 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 101 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 11:43 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 100 of 248 (200573)
04-19-2005 11:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by tsig
03-12-2005 4:57 AM
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Re: No difference
DHA writes: We eat, breathe, sleep, and have sex, just like all the rest. Not all animals have sex or breathe (depends on your definition) or sleep, for that matter. So humans are different in many ways from other animals.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by tsig, posted 03-12-2005 4:57 AM | | tsig has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by tsig, posted 04-20-2005 5:35 AM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 101 of 248 (200575)
04-19-2005 11:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 99 by QBert14000
04-19-2005 11:32 PM
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Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
I do not see how the scenario proves what you say it does. Just because God chose not to do something doesn't mean that God couldn't have done it. I never said he couldn't do it. He could have created everything 15 minutes ago. But a GOD that would do something like that would be little more than Loki.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 11:32 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 102 of 248 (200579)
04-19-2005 11:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 90 by jar
04-19-2005 6:22 PM
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Re: Okay, one down.
jar writes: Does that make any sense at all? Yup 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 6:22 PM | | jar has not replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 103 of 248 (200581)
04-20-2005 12:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by jar
04-19-2005 6:55 PM
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Re: Still struggling
jar writes: No, not really. He would also be pretty inconsistent and very juvenile. A GOD that can imagine the universe would be pretty silly if he created billions of critters that lived over billions of years just to provide a conundrum for humanity. Why is that silly?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 6:55 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 104 by jar, posted 04-20-2005 12:09 AM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Still struggling
It's both silly and dishonest. Granted GOD could have created the earth as we see it 6000 years ago (or 15 miutes or 10,000 years) but if He did so, if He created a world that was young but looked old; He has created a falshood, a lie. I cannot imagine a GOD that could intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and all the other forces, who could create a system such as Evolution, who could create man with free-will (although limited) yet one who would behave like some Bling-bling Pimp Daddy runing whores and selling crack on the street corner. He just doesn't seem like the shuck'n and jiv'n kinda gal.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 105 of 248 (200585)
04-20-2005 12:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 97 by jar
04-19-2005 10:26 PM
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Re: Sure hope this doesn't take 40 years: LOL
jar writes: I'm not sure I understand your question? In fact, I'm PDS that I don't understand your question! LOL Yeah, that didn't make much sense when I re-read it, but it obviously did when I wrote it! Here's what I can salvage: I think you said somewhere that God created a near-perfect system (evolution by nat. selection) that created all these species. My question is that if God created the system exactly according to God's will, then does that not mean 1) the system is perfect since it was created exactly as God wanted it, and 2) all the outcomes of the system were goals of that system since God knew exactly how the system would behave? Or do you not assume that God created exactly according to God's will?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 10:26 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by jar, posted 04-20-2005 12:25 AM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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