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Author | Topic: Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think Hawking's wording is pretty clear that gravity is the cause. I disagree and I've explained why I think what I think. Does it add anything if I say I think it is pretty clear that you are wrong about Hawking's wording? I don't think so.
As I understand it, there were no forces or force carriers (including gravity and gravitons) until a split second after the Big Bang. So how could gravity be an "enabler" of the Big Bang? I can imagine an answer for your question. Hypothetically, let's assume those force carriers were created a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang just as you suggest I must assume. Absent gravity, then whatever energy popped out of nowhere in a quantum fluctuation must simply disappear else conservation of matter is violated. On the other hand, if gravity/gravitons are created within a relevant small time period, then the establishment of negative energy allows the positive energy created by the fluctuation to persist. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: It would require an infinite regression of mindless processes to arrive in a world teeming with life, and ultimately sentient life with a sense of morality. Why? You've read here that some scientists believe that there are good reasons why our universe could have started itself. I have no way of understanding that but at least it's based on mathematical evidence, not just made up.
If we are making a case for this world being the result of a moral sentient intelligence There's no reason why your imaginary universe creator needs to be sentient or moral. Certainly the evidence that it's moral is totally lacking - rather the opposite, the universe is a hostile place.
then we can get around the argument of infinite regression by theorizing, as science does for other reasons, to postulate the idea of multiple dimensions of time where life can be infinite. Certainly, the idea of multiple dimensions of time is highly theoretical but if science can do it why can't theologians. This of course would give us an understanding of a God who always was and always will be, which negates the need for all those turtles. Science builds it's hypotheseses from evidence, then tests them - it doesn't just make shit up. Goddidit is a pure man made invention, born out of ignorance. The reason why science is successful in sweeping away the primitive belief structures of ancient religious superstitions is because it doesn't just make stuff up. It finds its answers in observations of what actually happens, not what some shaman says happens. It's how society progresses. Why there's something rather that nothing is one of the great remaining question for science, I personally doubt that we'll ever actually know the answer to that. But what we certainly won't do is make up an answer, form multiple mutually exclusive cults, get on our knees and worship it in fear our eternal damnation.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
ICANT writes: Yes there is. There even isn't any empirical, verifiable evidence that Gods exist today.
There is no argument for the origin of God. ICANT writes: Or maybe some form of Gods existed billions of years ago, but died in the meantime. You like your false dichotomies, don't you?
He either exists or He does not exist.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
ICANT
I do not care so much as to why you believe in a creator God as it all involves issues that you cannot prove or demonstrate. I do have a view that nature always creates for the best possible end for that organism, be it plant, animal, or whatever life there is. My question to you then is why on earth would your creator God create these abominations? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0_Fos&feature=playe... And why does your God keep creating only sinners if he does not want sinners? Let me remind you.Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein RegardsDL
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Admin Director Posts: 13035 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.0 |
Greatest I am writes: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein Most likely this saying did not originate with any of the people it is usually attributed to. My favorite form:
"Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results." -anon
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1530 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi GDR,
GDR writes: Abiogenesis is necessary for evolution to begin, and there had to be some other process that allowed for abiogenesis, with processes going back to the origin of the cosmos. Ok you made a connection between those three things.Like spacetime and matter are necessary for abiogenesis,evolution and the orgin of the cosmos to included my starbucks coffee. GDR writes: We make up our own minds about whether the processes that have led up to sentient beings with an understanding of morality are based on an infinite string of mindless processes or is there an intelligent moral first cause. Yes we can decide to believe the anthropic principal or not. Some people are content to believe that the only world with God/gods are those with creatures that are there to invoke them."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Admin
Many quotes seem to be plagiarized and miss-attributed. The web of lies might be well named. RegardsDL
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi DL
DL writes: My question to you then is why on earth would your creator God create these abominations? There are 3 creation events in the Bible.
quote: quote: quote: quote: God ended His work and creation in Genesis 2:2. God has not created anything since that time. So get your theology straight and you won't ask such foolish questions.
DL writes: And why does your God keep creating only sinners if he does not want sinners? God has never created a sinner. Man is a sinner by choice. Due to the fact the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 exercised his freewill and ate the fruit he had been forbidden to eat. So if you want to blame someone blame that man. Everything that the Supernatural Power created was perfect, without spot or blemish. Everything including the entire universe is under the penalty of sin due to the sin of one man.
quote: God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Pressie,
You may believe in God's I do not. I believe there is 1 Supernatural Power that controls all the energy and mass in, and outside of the universe as well as all the dark matter and dark energy. This Supernatural Power supplied the energy and mass to create everything seen and unseen. Thus this Supernatural Power solves all the problems of the BBT, String hypothesis and any other hypothesis that has been proposed concerning the beginning to exist of the universe and life on earth. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Everything including the entire universe is under the penalty of sin due to the sin of one man. That is one of the most evil notions ever cooked up in the fevered brains of theologists.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3988 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
GDR writes: I get that. But the point of the expression is, as you say, about infinite regression. I am using the argument of infinite regression and applying it to a strictly material, universe of mindless origins. It would require an infinite regression of mindless processes to arrive in a world teeming with life, and ultimately sentient life with a sense of morality. There is a bit of pathos in watching you pace this circle round and round... Why is an infinite regression required? I'm quite comfortable with the idea of an origin point for the universe sans extrinsic cause, supernatural or otherwise. You state this requirement as though it were established by science or logical proof, but you neglected to show your work.
If we are making a case for this world being the result of a moral sentient intelligence then we can get around the argument of infinite regression by theorizing, as science does for other reasons, to postulate the idea of multiple dimensions of time where life can be infinite. The problem of infinite regression arises when you postulate a supernatural being as creator of the universe. Science doesn't do that; the infinite regression problem belongs to you, not scientists. By the way, some scientists theorize multiple dimensions because the math shows the possibility, and observation does not yet confound it. They show their work.
Certainly, the idea of multiple dimensions of time is highly theoretical but if science can do it why can't theologians. Theologians can't run from the logical and scientific difficulties of supernatural belief. That they are reduced to lurking in the obscurities of theoretical astrophysics is mere bathos. But if you especially like multidimensonal gaps for your God, rather than the shrinking ones here in this space-time, sure, tuck him in. Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Omnivorous
Omnivorous writes: By the way, some scientists theorize multiple dimensions because the math shows the possibility, and observation does not yet confound it. How does math show anything prior to T=1040? God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : NoNukes pointed out error"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3988 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
ICANT writes: Omnivorous writes: How does math show anything prior to T=040? By the way, some scientists theorize multiple dimensions because the math shows the possibility, and observation does not yet confound it. Who said it did?"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
T=040 Surely this is a typo and you really mean T < 10-40s or something similar? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
How does math show anything prior to T=1040? Assuming the correction I suggested is made, we can make the distinction between physics which is what we can demonstrate to be true empirically, and those predictions made using math which describes what we know, but may also allow extrapolations from what we know. Here the idea is that math that fits what we know also allows things that are not yet verified, and may never be verified as correct or demonstrated to be incorrect. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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