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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 376 of 478 (776281)
01-11-2016 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by Faith
01-11-2016 11:07 AM


Re: Moderator Requests
Faith writes:
I had the idea from your earlier note on the subject that using the Peek mode should solve the problem, but all it solves is providing the quote codes for the statements already quoted; I still have to insert codes for the new post, unless I'm not understanding this rightly.
It does seem like there's something about quoting that you're not getting. Using my same example from my Message 262, the text that actually appeared in the hypothetical message being replied to was this, which is what you'd see in peek mode:
[qs=Polly]The Jasper letters were written in the 18th century.[/qs]
Actually, if you look it up you'll find that they weren't written until the 19th century.
To quote it all you have to do is copy the above text, paste it into your message box, then put [qs] in the front and [/qs] at the back, like this:
[qs][qs=Polly]The Jasper letters were written in the 18th century.[/qs]
Actually, if you look it up you'll find that they weren't written until the 19th century.[/qs]
That's it. It's almost instant quoting with low risk of error. You only have to type the nine additional characters for [qs] and [/qs] (more if you decide to include the author, as in [qs=Petrov]). And it works whether you're quoting one level of quotes or 5 or 6 levels of quotes. And the appearance remains precisely identical to the original message that you're replying to, instead of having backwards indentation the way you're doing it now.
Don't try to understand this by putting this message in peek mode - there's some extra codes added for presentation purposes.
Edited by Admin, : Typo.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 377 of 478 (776282)
01-11-2016 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
01-11-2016 11:01 AM


Re: Christian? violence
Faith writes:
In short the article is predominantly about Catholic violence, not Christian violence.
Just like you don't get to have a personal definition of a Muslim, you don't get to define Christian. There are 1.2bn Catholics in the world and they are defined as Christians whether you like it or not. They use the same book which contains the same atrocities.
The history of the Catholic Church begins with the teachings of Jesus Christ, who lived and preached in the 1st century AD in the province of Judea of the Roman Empire. The contemporary Catholic Church says that it is the continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus.
History of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 01-11-2016 11:01 AM Faith has replied

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 378 of 478 (776283)
01-11-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
01-08-2016 12:27 PM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Why do you keep imposing the OT on the NT? Clearly the OT is history, there are no injunctions anywhere there or in the NT to enact the kinds of justice you are all making a cause for having fits of moral indignation. We've been living under the NT for centuries now, though you are still tearing your hair out over ancient history as if it were today. Equating ancient history with today's Muslim beheadings must give you all some spurious sense of equality that makes you feel better about having been born in a superior culture, but the equation is bogus. The feverish blood-and-guts thinking here is all on your side.
As Faith has said a few times, these genocidal commands were given for only a few isolated cases in the OT as Israel conquered Palestine. These commands have not been repeated in the NT for Christians and are not normative for anyone today.
I agree that these commands seem to be at odds with God's character as revealed elsewhere in Scripture, especially in the NT. This leaves a number of interpretive options:
1) the God of the Bible is cruel and inconsistent (the atheist position)
2) these commands were NOT really from God (GDR's position?)
3) these commands were not meant literally, but were exaggerated hyperbole
4) there must have been unique extenuating circumstances which necessitated these people being wiped out (my position, and Faith's?)

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 379 of 478 (776285)
01-11-2016 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Faith
01-10-2016 8:27 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Doesn't bother you one bit to attack another human being from your own crabbed twisted jaundiced "moral" perspective, in a way that's worse than any Thought Police invasion of personal freedom up to this time that I can think of.
We profoundly disagree with your immoral premise in which you claim it is sometimes a good thing to dismember children for the sins of their ancestors.
Please note the difference here:
1) We point out your moral defect in this matter and you claim we are "attacking" you.
2) You call it good to physically attack and destroy the bodies of babies.
Our 'Attacks" on you character in this matter pale in comparison with your defense of adults physically attacking and destroying children. You aren't the martyr, you are siding with the killers of babies here.
Kinda reminds me of the propaganda they threw at the Jews once-upon-a-dreary-time.
Again, you aren't the Jew here...you are on the side of the committers of genocide, and you are the one saying it's alright to slaughter babies. And it's so ironic for you to point out that you are with the biblical Nazis here. You are defending Israel committing wholesale genocide and calling it "The Conquest." But when another nation commits wholesale genocide against Israel, you call it "The Holocaust." Israel committed it's own Holocaust and you think it was just fine back then.
Such an egregious intrusion on another human being's freedom of thought and speech is beyond even a constitutional issue, it's exactly what civilized people would have scorned doing to anyone not so long ago. Actually as I think about it such attacks should be criminally liable.
You would criminalize our right to call your religion's slaughter of children as immoral? Really?
You are falling right in the footsteps of your religious ancestors, when they actually DID hold secular power. They actually did criminalize, imprison, and kill by the hundreds those who contradicted their corrupt and immoral worldview. Like we do yours. Except you have no real power and we can openly wonder about you from a distance.
I probably won't be around for the mass beheadings, though I'll be sorry to miss all the excitement.
Yes, Faith. You will be sorry to miss the excitement of more mass slaughter.
The thick blackness of your worldview continues to seep through the cracks. Please remember we openly disavow your own words here. We are not twisting anything. In this regard you are morally compromised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 8:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 380 of 478 (776287)
01-11-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by kbertsche
01-11-2016 12:55 PM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
KB writes:
genocidal commands were given for only a few isolated case
That's supposed to be a defence? "I only committed genocide a few time, m'lud"
Well thank god (sic) for that.
Btw 1) is not the atheist positin - the atheist position is that the Bible is man-made myth and the cruelties and inconsistencies show that it was a product of its time.
And 4) 'extenuating circumstances' necessitating genocide and the murder of innocents? This is god you're talking about. You know the guy that can do anything? Including not killing everything on the planet from time to time on a whim.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by kbertsche, posted 01-11-2016 12:55 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 381 of 478 (776288)
01-11-2016 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Tangle
01-11-2016 1:09 PM


not just an atheist position
Tangle writes:
Btw 1) is not the atheist positin - the atheist position is that the Bible is man-made myth and the cruelties and inconsistencies show that it was a product of its time.
That's not just the atheist's position, mainstream Christian Churches understand that the Bible is a creation of men and that it does reflect the morals and beliefs of the folk that wrote it as well as their ignorance and fantasies.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 382 of 478 (776292)
01-11-2016 2:37 PM


Rationalizing Killing
I remember my time as a theist, when I came to the epiphany that life is not the purpose of life. To me, this seemed to be the obvious way to understand (or rationalize) what appeared to be wanton disregard for life on the part of the OT God: we see mortal life as our most precious possession and its loss as the most tragic and horrific outcome possible for anything, whereas God, with His eternal perspective, knows that there are far worse possible outcomes.
So, it’s easy enough to reach kbertsche’s position that killing (and even mass killing) is just another tool in God’s arsenal that may be warranted in extenuating circumstances in order to prevent worse outcomes. It’s even perfectly plausible to suggest that we mere mortals would be unable to recognize these extenuating circumstances when we see them, due to our limited perspectives.
However, the part I get hung up on is the part where God chooses to work through fallible, mortal agents to enact these justified killings. The Bible makes it clear that God is capable of doing His own killing, so I’m not sure why He’s hiring assassins to do it for Him; especially if it makes it that much easier for misguided followers and malicious pretenders to obscure their illegitimate murders behind a pretext of divine sanction.
In every other situation, such a veil of secrecy would make me suspicious; but it seems that I am expected to treat God (the biggest and most extreme example of a veil of secrecy) as the only exception to that general rule.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 383 of 478 (776340)
01-12-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Tangle
01-11-2016 12:50 PM


Re: Christian? violence
Faith writes:
In short the article is predominantly about Catholic violence, not Christian violence.
Just like you don't get to have a personal definition of a Muslim, you don't get to define Christian. There are 1.2bn Catholics in the world and they are defined as Christians whether you like it or not.
Yes, I can't very well expect you to care about the fact that they aren't, so that the title is wrongly appropriated, but while some individual Catholics may qualify as Christians, the Roman Catholic institution is not Christian at all no matter what Wikipedia says.
They use the same book which contains the same atrocities.
During the periods of the Crusades and the various Inquisitions they DIDN'T use that book. That's the point here. Are we talking about the supposed influence of something in that book or not? I thought we were. If they didn't base their violence on it, which they didn't, then you have no case whatever for your claim that the Bible provokes violence.
Wikipedia writes:
The history of the Catholic Church begins with the teachings of Jesus Christ, who lived and preached in the 1st century AD in the province of Judea of the Roman Empire. The contemporary Catholic Church says that it is the continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus.
Which is Catholic propaganda corrected in many other histories that never get read by the public. The RCC began with the establishment of the papacy at Rome and the claim to have authority over the other major centers of Christianity, usually dated at 606 AD, though the trend in that direction was certainly begun by Constantine a couple of centuries earlier. The point is that the RCC was a DEVIATION from the early church. Their history is really quite interesting, mostly a collection of interesting official lies enforced by very unchristian means of power.
However, the point here is that the BIBLE didn't much inform anything they did after Constantine, their actions were a fulfillment of pagan ideology backed by state power.
Perhaps it would be clearer if we stuck to the Bible accounts of the two incidents of God's judgments against sin that you think inspire violence in Christians, no matter who you think the Christians are. They don't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 12:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 384 of 478 (776341)
01-12-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Blue Jay
01-11-2016 2:37 PM


Re: Rationalizing Killing
Blue Jay writes:
However, the part I get hung up on is the part where God chooses to work through fallible, mortal agents to enact these justified killings. The Bible makes it clear that God is capable of doing His own killing, so I’m not sure why He’s hiring assassins to do it for Him; especially if it makes it that much easier for misguided followers and malicious pretenders to obscure their illegitimate murders behind a pretext of divine sanction.
I made that point with Faith earlier in the thread and of course there is no answer other that that she trusts God. Actually, it isnt about trusting God or even Jesus but about trusting in the idea that God essentially dictated an infallible Bible. That is simply an idea that grew out of the reformation with no reasonable rationale for it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 385 of 478 (776343)
01-12-2016 11:05 AM


The Bible references we are talking about
Percy asked for the Bible references under discussion here to be quoted, about God's ordering the complete annihilation of a people. I think the first one must be in the book of Joshua after the Israelites finally entered the land of Canaan after their desert wanderings, but I can't locate it for sure. I did locate the one a few hundred years later where the prophet Samuel gives Saul the message from God to completely destroy the Amalekites:
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 386 of 478 (776344)
01-12-2016 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Admin
01-11-2016 12:22 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
dup
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 387 of 478 (776345)
01-12-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Admin
01-11-2016 12:22 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
Thanks for repeating the information about quoting. That is what I had understood and I did do it a few times but kept lapsing into my old method, partly because I never remember to go to the Peek page before hitting the Reply button. Your method is somewhat easier so I'll try to get in the habit of it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 388 of 478 (776347)
01-12-2016 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by GDR
01-12-2016 10:49 AM


Re: Rationalizing Killing
Blue Jay writes:
However, the part I get hung up on is the part where God chooses to work through fallible, mortal agents to enact these justified killings. The Bible makes it clear that God is capable of doing His own killing, so I’m not sure why He’s hiring assassins to do it for Him; especially if it makes it that much easier for misguided followers and malicious pretenders to obscure their illegitimate murders behind a pretext of divine sanction.
I made that point with Faith earlier in the thread and of course there is no answer other that that she trusts God. Actually, it isnt about trusting God or even Jesus but about trusting in the idea that God essentially dictated an infallible Bible. That is simply an idea that grew out of the reformation with no reasonable rationale for it.
I fail to grasp the importance of the distinction. People are killed in this world by many means, some we can attribute to God without human hand, such as natural catastrophes, and some to violence or accidents at the hands of human beings, which a believer in the sovereignty of God of course attributes to God's workings as well.
If the Bible could have been manipulated to legitimize the actions of "misquided followers and malicious pretenders" there is no reason to take the Bible seriously at all. It's Bible inerrancy or nothing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 389 of 478 (776348)
01-12-2016 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
01-12-2016 11:05 AM


Re: The Bible references we are talking about
quote:
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
"Utterly destroy them" is clarified later on:
quote:
Deuteronomy 20 16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
"Save alive nothing that breatheth."

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 390 of 478 (776350)
01-12-2016 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
01-12-2016 10:45 AM


Re: Christian? violence
Faith writes:
Yes, I can't very well expect you to care about the fact that they aren't,
No Faith, you can't expect me to care that YOU say they aren't when the rest of the world says they are. And because they obviously are. You're just yet another fundamentalist in a minority sect claiming to know the one true way and despising the other true ways.
During the periods of the Crusades and the various Inquisitions they DIDN'T use that book.
Of course they did, it was holy war and the same book.
However, the point here is that the BIBLE didn't much inform anything they did after Constantine, their actions were a fulfillment of pagan ideology backed by state power.
And the bible, the book of Holy War.
The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3
The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19
And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities....
And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16
If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21
So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Joshua 11:20
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9
He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34
That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23
Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 01-12-2016 10:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 01-12-2016 11:50 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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