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Author Topic:   Do you care what happens next?
Omnivorous
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Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 16 of 68 (777190)
01-27-2016 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
01-26-2016 11:36 PM


Re: I wonder if it will be friends with me?
Hi, Faith.
Upon reflection, I can see that answering my question on its terms would require you to set aside your strongly held religious beliefs. For you, the universe is a grand stage on which God and humanity enact the Passion Play; a question that presumes the fate of the universe depends solely upon the past and present state of the universe is nonsensical to someone who believes all will be determined by the will of God.
Does that sound right? I was trying to suggest how profound our differences are on that question without prejudice against your view.
In brief, what we observe about the universe suggests it may come to some kind of end. Some believe it will continue to expand and cool into an eternal cold darkness (if time makes any sense at that point), some that the universe cycles back, collapsing again into an infinitely dense point before being reborn in another Big Bang. There are other options, but these are two popular flavors.
My question started when I read a comment elsewhere, appended to an article on research to determine which end was likely, suggesting it was madness to care how it all ends, because we (and presumably all of humanity) will be long gone when the end comes.
My surprise was realizing that I care about how it ends. I don't want the heat to go out and the lights to go off forever. I don't especially care about the fate of humanity, but I've discovered I care very much about the existence of a universe where intelligent life continues to explore beauty and wonder; your beliefs, I think, suggest a perfected eternity of beauty and wonder.
So, as I said, the premises are so diametrically opposed to your beliefs that the question may remain philosophically/religiously nonsensical. I appreciate your sincere attempt to clarify the question.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 01-26-2016 11:36 PM Faith has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 17 of 68 (777191)
01-27-2016 9:39 AM


Time for another poem; this sums things up nicely

A Man Said to the Universe

By Stephen Crane
A man said to the universe:
Sir, I exist!
However, replied the universe,
The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 18 of 68 (777192)
01-27-2016 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
01-27-2016 9:39 AM


Re: Time for another poem; this sums things up nicely
I don't feel the sun is obliged to rise tomorrow.
But I still prefer that it did.
Like Frost, I have a preference on bigger things as well.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(3)
Message 19 of 68 (777201)
01-27-2016 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Omnivorous
01-27-2016 9:35 AM


You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
Omni writes:
Upon reflection, I can see that answering my question on its terms would require you to set aside your strongly held religious beliefs. For you, the universe is a grand stage on which God and humanity enact the Passion Play; a question that presumes the fate of the universe depends solely upon the past and present state of the universe is nonsensical to someone who believes all will be determined by the will of God.
Does that sound right? I was trying to suggest how profound our differences are on that question without prejudice against your view.
That's a pretty good way of summing up our differences I suppose, but it prompts me to confess that even before I was a Christian I objected to the way "science" was always focused on mindless physical events rather than on humanity, on the vast cold universe or the mechanical chemical operations of evolution that supposedly brought about this or that human "adaptation."
I can say I hated all that with a passion, without being even remotely a Christian. I hated the way "science" talked about human beings as mere accidents thrown up by physical machinations. I hated Sociobiology with an extreme passion for instance, and in the area of Psychology I hated Behaviorism with an extreme passion. I read a lot of stuff about all that and it depressed me that people think that way. I hated anything that mechanized and "scientized" US, that reduced Mind for instance to an "emergent property" of chemistry.
The "universe" certainly has no "obligation" to us at all, but I abhor the idea that we are just part of such a mindless empty thing. I resent the way human beings are talked about as "arrogant" for putting ourselves above the rest of creation when we are *really* just the result of automatic mindless chemical processes. There is and always was nothing more obvious to me than that we are far more important than anything that ever happened, whether by evolution or whatever.
I don't know why I had that mental set, I certainly had no Christian ideas about the image of God, I just subjectively personally assessed Us as more important than all that cold impersonal chemical stuff. I called myself a "humanist" because what else is there if you refuse to be reduced to chemistry but aren't a believer in God?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Omnivorous, posted 01-27-2016 9:35 AM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 01-27-2016 12:56 PM Faith has replied
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 20 of 68 (777203)
01-27-2016 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
01-27-2016 12:01 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
Faith writes:
That's a pretty good way of summing up our differences I suppose, but it prompts me to confess that even before I was a Christian I objected to the way "science" was always focused on mindless physical events rather than on humanity, on the vast cold universe or the mechanical chemical operations of evolution that supposedly brought about this or that human "adaptation."
I just don't see the two as being mutually exclusive and I'd go so far to say that they can be complimentary. As Christians we can look at the discoveries of science in awe as mankind continues to strive to determine not why, but how God did it.
Also of course, science does focus on mindless physical events, but at the same time that focus has from a humanistic or Christian perspective, brought about huge benefits for humanity. Look at the advances in medicine or even your dishwasher. (Unfortunately much of it has been misused but that is another subject.)
On the whole as Christians we should give thanks to scientists for their study of mindless physical events.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 01-27-2016 12:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 21 of 68 (777205)
01-27-2016 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
01-27-2016 12:01 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
Faith writes:
I don't know why I had that mental set
I do. And so does science.
You felt that way because people have conscious minds that are able to think hard about such things. Our mind sets us apart from all other life and makes us feel important, special, different. Surely, we say to ourselves, we're not just like everything else?
But it's just hubris, we are like everything else. Science has shown us that and those, like you, who think they must be special anyway turn to religion to make it so.
You were simply making the mistake of only noticing the science that conflicts with your internal feelings of being special - and now with the science that shows that your religious beliefs that make you special - are wrong. It's a perfectly natural feeling and process.
But you fail to understand that those small bits of science that you notice - evolution, pychology, sociology etc are all linked by the scientific method (some more successfully than others) and most are linked by basic chemical and physical processes that have been proven empirically to be true. So when you object to the fact that the earth is very old, you object to many branches of science supporting it without even knowing it.
Not that that bothers you much, you're too happy feeling special.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 01-27-2016 12:01 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 01-27-2016 3:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 22 of 68 (777207)
01-27-2016 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Omnivorous
01-26-2016 7:03 PM


Re: I can be on topic, too
Omnivorous writes:
I'm not yet content to accept the insignificance of any event in this universe.
Me too, as I am currently unable to achieve my goal of knowing everything. Maybe tomorrow
Your sentiment is absolutely valid as well.
Even my statement that "how the universe will end will not affect us physically today" is suspect on some level of scrutiny, really. At least, it doesn't give me that warm-fuzzy "yeah, that's definitely correct" feeling.
All we can really say is that we can't think of a way that how the universe will end could possibly affect us physically today.
But me not-thinking-of-something-happening doesn't seem to have much of an affect on things happening all around me all the time.
Maybe it does affect us physically, and we're already affected in a certain way due to a certain way the universe will be ending... but it's just "normal" to us (because we've been "affected" for our entire existence). And perhaps we would care very much if it were different.
I mean, I don't think it's *likely*... but that's far from providing a proof myself, even.
Interesting thought exercises, but yeah... grains of salt

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 Message 13 by Omnivorous, posted 01-26-2016 7:03 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 68 (777214)
01-27-2016 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
01-27-2016 12:56 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
I just don't see the two as being mutually exclusive and I'd go so far to say that they can be complimentary. As Christians we can look at the discoveries of science in awe as mankind continues to strive to determine not why, but how God did it.
Also of course, science does focus on mindless physical events, but at the same time that focus has from a humanistic or Christian perspective, brought about huge benefits for humanity. Look at the advances in medicine or even your dishwasher. (Unfortunately much of it has been misused but that is another subject.)
On the whole as Christians we should give thanks to scientists for their study of mindless physical events.
You misunderstand me. "Mindless physical events" is science's proper sphere and science does important work within that sphere. I'm objecting to science's pretending to explain phenomena outside that sphere: mind, consciousness, human creativity, feeling, even life itself, all the stuff that gets wrongly reduced to "emergent properties" of physical systems. Science can study anything physical to good purpose, including the human body, but it has nothing to say of any value about us as thinking feeling moral creatures.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(3)
Message 24 of 68 (777221)
01-27-2016 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
01-27-2016 1:10 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
Tangle writes:
Faith writes:
I don't know why I had that mental set
I do. And so does science.
You felt that way because people have conscious minds that are able to think hard about such things. Our mind sets us apart from all other life and makes us feel important, special, different. Surely, we say to ourselves, we're not just like everything else?
But it's just hubris, we are like everything else. Science has shown us that and those, like you, who think they must be special anyway turn to religion to make it so.
On this one, I agree with Faith's larger point.
I think we're special. Not unique entirely, certainly, but human beings at their best are magnificent creatures. We know time and space, past and future, cause and effect in ways unqiue in their depth and scope; that we make our will part of what shapes so much of our world is unique. The horizons of our knowledge and our technological power widen almost faster than our eyes and minds can open to accept them; but both do, faster and faster. That does make us special as well as especially dangerous.
My personal moral foundation is that knowledge makes us moral agents. Because we lack the innocence of ignorance, we bear responsibility for our actions.* On that basis, I believe, we are responsible both to each other and to life in general. In my lost paradise, the willful, unnecessary infliction of any death or suffering is the mark of Cain.
I think our sense of special moral agency is intuitive, important and true. Religion courts it, but the recognition that we alone of all creatures appear as significant actors on the moral stage is far older than religion.
Clearly, by those lights we haven't done well, but I don't think we'll improve by embracing the notion that we're essentially just another animal. It's valid science (without the 'just'), I guess, but where will it take moral philosophy? If science has something to say to religion, should it be, "We're nothing special, get over yourself."?
All life is special to me; all matter is pretty dang remarkable, existence itself the most extraordinary. So I appreciate the vanity of cosmic special claims from scantily furred mammals.
But it appears to me that, so far, on this planet, we are unique in our fusion of moral and physical power. Some day, I hope, we'll have company and merely be uniquely human rather than uniquely intelligent in a small pond.
I agree with much of your critique of organized religion, and the dark engines of belief you speak of in your post; probably most. Aw heck, pretty much all of it. If more religious folks truly followed their founders rather than their contemporary factions, more of them would arrive at a sense of reverence and stewardship to the world. Organized religion is a bad influence on genuinely religious people.
But I agree with Faith that you don't have to be a Christian (or religious at all--I'm a strong atheist) to object to a reductionist view of our kind. **
I get there with a moral philosophy quite different from hers, but I get there special. ***
_____________________________________________________
*See also Spiderman.
**: Not saying you're being reductionist, just being wary of it.
***: No, not on the short bus, jar.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2016 1:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2016 4:31 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 01-27-2016 9:59 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 25 of 68 (777225)
01-27-2016 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Omnivorous
01-27-2016 3:52 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
Omni writes:
I think we're special.
Sure, but so is flight, breathing under water, sensing pheromones over 2 miles away, echo location, sight etc etc. Consciousness and its consequencies seem just more impressive. To us.
If we weren't built out of the same chemicals as a beetle and a banana, we might have cause to wonder, but knowing beyond doubt that we're as much part of the natural development of life on earth and a recent one at that, makes it all a bit moot.
We're special for sure, but not special enough to be immortal or supernatural. Just special enough to think that we're so special that we're not disposable - which we obviously are and we find it difficult to live with that knowledge so we invent all sorts of nonsense to cope.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 01-27-2016 3:52 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by 1.61803, posted 01-27-2016 5:35 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 29 by Omnivorous, posted 01-27-2016 8:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(2)
Message 26 of 68 (777230)
01-27-2016 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
01-27-2016 4:31 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
Tangle writes:
Just special enough to think that we're so special that we're not disposable - which we obviously are and we find it difficult to live with that knowledge so we invent all sorts of nonsense to cope.
Jean Paul Sartre~Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.
It is up to you to give life a meaning.
While it is true that we do indeed invent all manner of nonsense to cope. Regardless of ones religious belief or lack thereof; all but the most ardent nihilist can see that there is more to us than the sum of our parts. Nonsense or not we choose the bed of our making. Some are comforted by the thought of heaven and some are comforted in the belief of a life well spent.
It is perhaps the regretful man that must face his twilight looking into the emptiness of his own absurdity and thus comfort himself that none of it really matters.
I myself tend to fluctuate between every one of these depending on my mood.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2016 4:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 01-28-2016 3:30 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 27 of 68 (777231)
01-27-2016 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Omnivorous
01-25-2016 7:05 PM


I care
I care what happens next. I care because I think life is beautiful and want it to continue in what ever form it may.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Omnivorous, posted 01-25-2016 7:05 PM Omnivorous has replied

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 28 of 68 (777232)
01-27-2016 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by 1.61803
01-27-2016 5:40 PM


Re: I care
~1.6 writes:
I care what happens next. I care because I think life is beautiful and want it to continue in what ever form it may.
quote:
Sometimes it's just this simple.
Sometimes life is just this simple.
Sometimes life is really just this simple.
The Bottle Rockets, Dog

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by 1.61803, posted 01-27-2016 5:40 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 29 of 68 (777234)
01-27-2016 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
01-27-2016 4:31 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
Tangle writes:
Sure, but so is flight, breathing under water, sensing pheromones over 2 miles away, echo location, sight etc etc. Consciousness and its consequencies seem just more impressive. To us.
And we can replicate all those things with technology. All nature has to do is show the monkey something...
If we weren't built out of the same chemicals as a beetle and a banana, we might have cause to wonder, but knowing beyond doubt that we're as much part of the natural development of life on earth and a recent one at that, makes it all a bit moot.
I don't understand what is mooted by the commonality of life.
We're special for sure, but not special enough to be immortal or supernatural.
Barring self-destruction, we're special enough to become far more powerful than we are. We may succeed in abstracting intelligence from the biological, pressing the limits of immortality and the supranatural. Already we're impressive enough to extirpate thousands of species (each of which had something important to tell us about life) and to alter an entire planet's climate.
We won't escape self-destruction if we don't find the right compass. When you ask someone to surrender their broken moral compass, you need to have a better one on offer; due to the nature of magic beans, it has to be special.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2016 4:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 30 of 68 (777238)
01-27-2016 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Omnivorous
01-27-2016 3:52 PM


Re: You don't have to be a Christian to object to the physical explanation of everything
All life is special to me; all matter is pretty dang remarkable, existence itself the most extraordinary. So I appreciate the vanity of cosmic special claims from scantily furred mammals.
But it appears to me that, so far, on this planet, we are unique in our fusion of moral and physical power. Some day, I hope, we'll have company and merely be uniquely human rather than uniquely intelligent in a small pond.
Back to the question how everything is going to end, there is of course a Biblical answer to that:
2 Peter 3:10, 13: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
It doesn't say when but there are plenty of other scriptures that lead us to believe we could be fast approaching it now.
Before I was a Christian, in appreciating the specialness of humanity I didn't think much about our moral nature for some reason. Sartre's stuff about responsibility just seemed trivial to me. I didn't have any objection to sin or any clear idea of the category, which is why I accumulated so much of it. I had the usual notions about doing no harm as my main moral standard. Something like that, it's hard to remember, but my picture of our specialness didn't have much to do with all that, just our capacities for thought, invention, feeling etc.
But when I became a Christian what overwhelmed me was the revelation of our moral nature as the most important thing about us, our being "made in the image of God." No I don't want to get into another discussion about God's supposed immoral actions, the idea is ludicrous and dangerous. His justice is frighteningly severe, but it is justice and deserved. The main moral revelation was the revelation of original sin -- that was staggering to me, seemed to "explain everything" about what's wrong with the world. The fact that death is the consequence of sin is horrifying but could be said to be THE proof of our importance -- it's all about moral agency in the end. That is what makes us the image of God, our moral failure is how we Fell, it's what explains all the horrible things in our history, it's why we die, it's why we suffer, it's why God judges us individually and judges nations and in the end will destroy the entire Creation and give us a new one; it's why we need a Savior and why God sent us a Savior, it's why His job was first to take our sins upon Himself so that we no longer suffer them, and why He imparts to us His perfect righteousness, without which we would just destroy it all again. The physical creation is subject to OUR moral failures. It's why animals die.
God says clearly He doesn't desire the death of the wicked, He desires that all repent and come to salvation. But we have to choose. Sometimes I wonder how anyone could be happy in heaven knowing people we care about aren't there. I know the theological answer but from our point of view here it's hard to grasp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 01-27-2016 3:52 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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