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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
Rahvin
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Posts: 3961
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 16 of 314 (649607)
01-24-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by saab93f
01-24-2012 3:09 PM


I live in Finland. From my ~5000 Eur monthly wage I pay 29 percent tax and them some 6 percent for unemployment coverage etc.

If I combined my monthly health costs with my tax rate, I believe I would be paying more than you do.

My health insurance premiums (my share only, not what my employer pays, and not including any copays or deductables) takes up roughly 14% of my income. My combined Federal and State tax rate is roughly 25%. So I pay about 39% of my monthly income in taxes and health insurance premiums. Not to mention my absurdly high copays (they doubled the cost of generics on me this year, and the name brands went up too...).


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers


This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3179
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 17 of 314 (649610)
01-24-2012 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by saab93f
01-24-2012 3:09 PM


I live in Finland. From my ~5000 Eur monthly wage I pay 29 percent tax and them some 6 percent for unemployment coverage etc.

Funny thing: that is barely higher than what most Americans pay already when you include all taxes (SS, Medicare, State, etc).


Mythology is what we call someone elses religion. Joseph Campbell

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Replies to this message:
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saab93f
Member
Posts: 188
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 18 of 314 (649612)
01-24-2012 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by hooah212002
01-24-2012 3:22 PM


Funny thing: that is barely higher than what most Americans pay already when you include all taxes (SS, Medicare, State, etc).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was not aware of that. Ive always been under the impression that you Americans pay less tax and then use the excess in any which way you choose. I stand corrected.

Mitt pays only 14 percent of his though


"Do or do not - there is no try"
Master Yoda

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Larni
Member
Posts: 3779
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 19 of 314 (649613)
01-24-2012 3:29 PM


Seems to me (from my rarified outsider view) that it would be a very Republican thing to do to have universal health care paid by the workers via taxes.

That would relieve the burden on all those poor business that currently contribute to their workers health care plans.

When will people wake up and realise that big business needs all the government support it can get?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 01-24-2012 5:21 PM Larni has responded

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3179
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 20 of 314 (649614)
01-24-2012 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by saab93f
01-24-2012 3:27 PM


Ive always been under the impression that you Americans pay less tax

Technically speaking, you could say that. However, like I said when you include mandatory payments towards Medicare, Social Security and state taxes, it gets up there. The deception comes when you even try and look up "what tax bracket am I in?" and all that is listed is federal income tax. Well you know what? It's not just federal income tax that I pay EVERY paycheck before I get my net income. I can't calculate federal income tax only. What matters to me is how much as a whole is taken every paycheck and that FAR exceeds the said "tax bracket".


Mythology is what we call someone elses religion. Joseph Campbell

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 12964
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 21 of 314 (649639)
01-24-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by saab93f
01-24-2012 3:09 PM


"Well, name your country. The chances are that you pay less in taxes to provide public healthcare. "

I live in Finland. From my ~5000 Eur monthly wage I pay 29 percent tax and them some 6 percent for unemployment coverage etc.

So here's the figures for government healthcare spending (these are from 2005, I happened to have them handy):

Finland: Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) 2196.0
U.S: Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) 2862.0

The U.S. government is spending, on average, ~$700 more on healthcare per capita. This means that the U.S. government is taxing more per capita to pay for it. And yet for all this spending, most Americans are not eligible to receive government healthcare, so they have to pay again for private insurance. Which doesn't actually cover their medical bills, so they have to pay again for co-pay in the case that they actually get ill.

But forget the private fees they have to pay for the moment, and look at this one singular fact. Americans are paying more in taxes to pretend that they have a capitalist system (which they don't, and which doesn't work) than you are paying in taxes for socialized medicine.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 5371
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 22 of 314 (649644)
01-24-2012 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Larni
01-24-2012 3:29 PM


Seems to me (from my rarified outsider view) that it would be a very Republican thing to do to have universal health care paid by the workers via taxes.

The Republican plan is to give each person $2,000 dollars in tax credits to spend on private health insurance. This is the plan that McCain ran on in 2008. IOW, they want to throw fuel on the fire. The fundamental flaw in the American system is a lack of any coherent policy and zero price controls. The Republican plan would only throw more money into this pit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 01-24-2012 3:29 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3779
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 23 of 314 (649686)
01-25-2012 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taq
01-24-2012 5:21 PM


The Republican plan is to give each person $2,000 dollars in tax credits to spend on private health insurance.

So with a popn of 312,905,000 (lets half that figure to get rid of non eligables) or 156,452,500 each getting $2,000.

This means the spend would be $312,905,000,000.

Really?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 01-24-2012 5:21 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 2533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 24 of 314 (649688)
01-25-2012 5:26 AM


If you've lived in a country with universal, free healthcare you only get an idea what it would be like without it when you travel. The need to get medical insurance is an eye opener.

We all have experience of insurance companies through household and car insurance and know how weasily they get when you need to claim - am I actually covered for this? I'd hate to be worrying about that when I'm driving to A&E with my child.

I doubt that any democratic country has ever taken the decision to reverse universal healthcare once provided, it's value to the individual is just too high - politician tinker with it at their peril.

The US's position is strange to an outsider - it seems to be a problem with the word 'social' rather than the principle of healthcare; it's a totem of rightwing machismo that anything called 'social' is actually communism in disguise so a line can be drawn.

Perhaps liberal (another word generally regarded as a 'good' thing here but is perjorative in the US) politicians should rename the other things the state provides as services for all, Social Education, Social Defence, Social Highways, Social Street Lighting.....


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 01-25-2012 5:57 AM Tangle has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3779
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 25 of 314 (649694)
01-25-2012 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tangle
01-25-2012 5:26 AM


Privatising the NHS.
politician tinker with it at their peril.

Don't be too sure of that, mate.

I've worked for the NHS PCT for 10 years and this year my (adult mental health) department in the PCT has become a Community Interest Company.

Privatised in all but name: if what was my department of the PCT does can be under cut by 'any willing provider' bam! I''m out of a job.

So we can expect to see wages forced down as the loweset tender can (and will) be accepted by the NHS comisioners.

Times was when providing and comisioning were all provided byt the NHS. Now the NHS subcontacts out to private providers who get to keep the NHS brand.

Now the suggestion that GPs hold all the funding: so they refer people to private providers on which they hold a directorship. There is nothing to preven this from happening.

And they have thier sights set on my pension, the fuckers.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2012 5:26 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2012 6:48 AM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 28 by Omnivorous, posted 01-25-2012 8:52 AM Larni has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 2533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 26 of 314 (649695)
01-25-2012 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Larni
01-25-2012 5:57 AM


Re: Privatising the NHS.
Larni writes:

Don't be too sure of that, mate.

I'm painting my 'Hands off my NHS' placard right now.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 01-25-2012 5:57 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 27 of 314 (649707)
01-25-2012 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
01-24-2012 1:29 PM


We don't need public healthcare
Would public health care work for me?

I think a healthy low carb diet and a work-out plan would work better for you. Not being a dick, I'm serious, working out and a healthy diet would benefit us more than concerns for public healthcare.

Fact is, Washington will decide, period. We need to take care of ourselves. We're over-weight, un-healthy, lazy burdens on our government sometimes.

What do I do about my diabetes? Stay out of McDonalds!

What about my sleep apnea? Go for a jog, do some sit-ups, maybe a few push-ups... IT'S FREE!!!

Just eat right and exercie. It's natures healthcare plan.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 8:53 AM onifre has responded
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3355
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 28 of 314 (649709)
01-25-2012 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Larni
01-25-2012 5:57 AM


Re: Privatising the NHS.
Larni writes:

And they have thier sights set on my pension, the fuckers.

Pension? How quaint--that's so 20th century.

Once you get rid of that nanny umbilical, you'll be truly free. Soon, without any pensions, public healthcare or other government intrusions into the natural market, we'll all be rich as kings.

I saw it on television.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 9976
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 29 of 314 (649710)
01-25-2012 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by onifre
01-25-2012 8:39 AM


Re: We don't need public healthcare
Can we take it from this that you have stopped smoking....?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by onifre, posted 01-25-2012 8:39 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
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rbp
Member
Posts: 475
Joined: 01-29-2008


(1)
Message 30 of 314 (649711)
01-25-2012 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by onifre
01-25-2012 8:39 AM


Re: We don't need public healthcare
I think a healthy low carb diet and a work-out plan would work better for you. Not being a dick, I'm serious, working out and a healthy diet would benefit us more than concerns for public healthcare.

About two months ago i fell down a flight of stairs and had to go to the emergency room. How would a low carb diet have prevented that?

A few years ago i crashed on my bike, hit my head pretty bad. Got picked up by an ambulance. Again, how would a healthy diet have prevented that?

You cant prevent alot of diseases and damages to your body by eating healthy. A friend of my parents died from cancer a few weeks ago, and was in pretty good shape. Never drank alcohol, never smoked, did alot of working out and ate healthy. He is still dead though.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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