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Author | Topic: Evidence of the flood | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JonF Member (Idle past 168 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
If the context requires that you STATE your argument, the context requires that you DISCUSS and DEFEND your statement.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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What this is about is being able to be open minded enough so you won't be held back from finding Christ. Then you are going about it completely backwards and are instead creating obstacles for anyone to find Christ. Years ago I came across Dr. Allan H. Harvey, a practicing Christian and a scientist (Ph.D. Chemical Engineering) who had written essays about science and religion. What he wrote in Science and Christian Apologetics describes the effects of the mistake that you are making:
quote: Is that really what you want to do? To drive people away from ever considering Christianity? I would add to that by pointing out that my 35-plus years studying "creation science" and its myriad false claims have taught me much about creationist and Christian dishonesty. Is that what finding Christ is supposed to lead you to, complete immorality? That is a very strong recommendation to avoid that religion altogether. I would recommend reading the rest of that essay, which also gets into the false theology of "The God of the Gaps", which I have found to be central to "Intelligent Design" and strongly present in "creation science." He lists his essays at http://steamdoc.itgo.com/writings.htm. I think it was through his essay on the bogus claim NASA computer program having found Joshua's Long Day that I found him. That claim was one of the first creationist claims I was told and it was enough to convince me that creationism was completely and utterly false and, since fundamentalist Christianity would require me to believe it, that made that religion false as well. I have long since revisited that conclusion and have found it to still hold true.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Albert knew that the claims of so-called "creation science" about the Earth being only 6000 years old and so forth were ridiculous, like saying the Earth was flat. I can't blame him for not wanting to be associated with that nonsense. There is more than one kind of confusion going on here. The 6000 years is not merely "Creation Science," it's what probably a majority of Bible-literalist Christians believe who don't get into the scientific questions at all. They believe in a literal six days of creation based on the 24-hour day, they believe that death did not exist before the Fall, they believe in a worldwide Flood occurring some time after the Creation though many may not have worked out the timing, and so on. Because that's all clearly implied in the Bible, which they regard as the inspired word of God. So while I agree that these things are secondary issues if your goal is persuasion to Christ, they are all basic biblical truths for Bible-inerrancy Christians. I certainly thought 6000 years was ridiculous too before I was a believer, but when I realized that is really what the Bible says and believed it, it made me laugh at the immense abyss between Christianity and science. Although it's all intimately wrapped up in salvation, it's probably not a useful place to start persuading someone to salvation. On the other hand, if that's where we have to start so be it, God's the saver of souls and our job is just to represent His word, however uncomfortable. And as the author also says, the gospel itself is "foolishness" to the world so there isn't much that isn't uncomfortable. What the Church has taught about the timing in Genesis is NOT false, it's just very hard to defend it in the teeth of the undeserved credibility of today's Old Earth sciences. It's God who saves; all any Christian can do is pass on the message, as we are told to do. And fudging the uncomfortable disconnect between science's timing and the Bible's timing is lying, and there's no way a lie can be the basis for drawing anyone to the truth of Christ's salvation. THAT is the big mistake your author Allen Harvey makes. We have to defend what seems like an absurdity to the world if we are put in that position, there is no way around it, and leave it to God to change hearts and minds. The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science. The only way to protect them as they go to university is tell them about the contradiction and warn them that they will encounter opposition and pray for them. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science. Science contradicts and disproves young earth beliefs with mountains of evidence. If you want Christian children to be prepared for the real world, it is best not to try and teach them beliefs which are contradicted and disproved so easily by real-world evidence. That just teaches them to distrust the other beliefs which they are taught.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science. The only way to protect them as they go to university is tell them about the contradiction and warn them that they will encounter opposition and pray for them. Sorry, but no it doesn't. When I started studying creationist claims circa 1981, it was mainly the young-earth claims. I haven't found a single one to be true. Most of the time, they simply don't understand the science (eg, the "leap second" claim involving the earth's slowing rate of rotation). In many cases, they misrepresent scientific sources, at times even deliberately. I have even seen them fabricate "evidence". One thing I have noticed is that the number of creationists who allow themselves to discuss young-earth claims are being fewer and fewer. Even the most fervent YECs will go to extremes to avoid discussion young-earth claims. Kind of like even they can read the writing on the wall. Even they realize that young-earth claims are the weakest link in creationism. Here's yet another pearl. Even though I'm sure you will ignore it, others may benefit. In the late 1990's, a former YEC contacted me for advice in a discussion he had gotten himself into. I only know him as "Ed". I have since lost track of him on-line, but I had saved copies of his small website and have reposted them here: Creation, Evolution and Adam. Actually, he did reappear once, set up his site again for a while, then disappeared again. This is from his autobiographical page, My Search:
quote: BTW, later in an email Ed told that that creationist on the tapes he was "getting his fix from" was Kent Hovind. Even youth ministries report that they are losing 65% to 80% of the young people raised "in the faith" have left the faith with most of them leaving religion for good -- ("in the faith"; ie, fundamentalists, evangelicals, conservative Christians, and whatever else they call themselves -- even among themselves they have splintered into so many different sects that do not want to associated with any of the others that their name should be called "Legion"). The fastest growing religious population is that of "Nones", for "none of the above", young people who do not want to have anything at all to do with any organized religion. So then, Faith, your approach fails miserably. It is your approach that results in the churches' next generation running away from those churches as fast as they can. Have you found a tailor/mason yet to fit you for a millstone?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You seem to have missed my point completely. I said it's not about creationism or Creation Science, it's what Bible believers believe who are not at all involved in creation science or creationist debates, who don't follow Kent Hovind or Ken Ham or any of them. Yet you keep referring to creationists. It doesn't matter what Old Earth science has to say about it, that's what Bible-believers believe. Of course there are Christians who capitulate to the science claims but they are wrong to do so. It's a form of weak-mindedness. The evidence is really not all that compelling, it's more illusion than reality. It takes guts to stick with what the Bible says when it is contradicted by those claims, but that kind of guts is what we have to have. There is no point in arguing what OE science claims after I've said that. Was I really not clear about this?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: If you want to reduce the bit about Noah taking animals two of every animal that needed saving on to the Ark to a few desperate singletons taking refuge, then I guess riverrat has evidence of that. But if he does that he's already removed the big implausibility from that part of the story anyway. Likewise with the implicit reduction of the Flood to a merely regional event. As for your claims, the strata and the fossil record could not have been produced by your Flood and show no sign of anything that might be more plausibly be evidence of a global Flood.
quote: In the same way that bullet wounds are evidence of death by natural causes.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It's unfortunate that people get stuck in ignorance and close their minds. But trying hard to suppress the fact that they are wrong hardly seems a good strategy for dealing with the problem.
quote: Equating an honest concern for the truth with "weak-mindedness" is just one of the ways you show us that you aren't really Christian.
quote: What a silly falsehood. You haven't managed to dent the evidence yet, nor have the major YEC organisations - and they are well ahead of you.
quote: But you aren't sticking with the Bible. You are even going against it in some ways. I guess it does take guts to call yourself a Christian while setting men up above God, twisting and misrepresenting the Bible to prop up your dogma. But it isn't something I can respect.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm telling the truth, I'm fairly representing what Bible believers believe the Bible says. Instead of acting like you know it all wouldn't it be more reasonable for you just to acknowledge that we disagree about these things? Surely you know I'm right about what these particular Christians believe.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: No. Even when you aren't lying you are saying things that are untrue, that you could find to be untrue if you were willing to look at it honestly and fairly.
quote: And they are wrong about the Bible. It's not hard to find that out. But you resort to your usual tactics of distortion and smears to suppress that fact.
quote: You mean that I should ignore some truths you don't like? Why should I do that ? Wouldn't it be better for you to admit that you haven't bothered to properly understand conventional geology rather than dismissing it as nonsense ?
quote: And surely you know that I didn't say that they didn't believe it. What I did say is that they are wrong to believe it and more wrong to fight against the truth to cling to those beliefs.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: I'm telling the truth, I'm fairly representing what Bible believers believe the Bible says. Instead of acting like you know it all wouldn't it be more reasonable for you just to acknowledge that we disagree about these things? Surely you know I'm right about what these particular Christians believe. All you're saying is "this is what we believe and nothing can change it." That's ok, we know extreme religious belief does this to people. What I find really fascinating is that you spend so much time and effort trying to show that your mad beliefs are rational when you know that they've been dispoven centuries ago. You have to defend your belief to yourself using any rationalisation you can find. Almost like you've not got the confidence to simply believe, you also have to find a way to prove to yourself that your belief is right despite all the evidence. You're a bit of a Thomas aren't you?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: You seem to have missed my point completely. I said it's not about creationism or Creation Science, it's what Bible believers believe who are not at all involved in creation science or creationist debates, who don't follow Kent Hovind or Ken Ham or any of them. What you are doing is basing everything on lies; lies about the Bible, lies about God, lies about reality. You market a version of Christianity that has lies as its foundation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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This poll is 3 years old, but the statistics appear to change little from year to year.
In U.S., 42% Believe Creationist View of Human Origins quote: The poll shows that Faith is not lying. She is describing the beliefs of many of the conservative fundamentalist or conservative charismatic Christians. I know a bunch of them. They argue with me over things much as Faith does here.here is one such exchange (on facebook) between one of my best friends---a man who works with the homeless and serves in soup kitchens here in Denver: quote: Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: What the Church has taught about the timing in Genesis is NOT false,... Genesis is a hodgpodge of things we know did and didn't happen. Creation? No. Adam and Eve? No. Global flood? No. Exodus? Not likely. Saul and David and Solomon? They were likely real people. The jumble of kings that follow were likely real.
...it's just very hard to defend it in the teeth of the undeserved credibility of today's Old Earth sciences. There's no such thing as "Old Earch sciences." There's just science which follows the evidence where it leads. The evidence leads to an ancient Earth and nearly as ancient life, both gradually and slowly changing over time.
We have to defend what seems like an absurdity to the world if we are put in that position, there is no way around it, and leave it to God to change hearts and minds. Sounds like a good idea to leave it to God to change hearts and minds. Lying for Christianity only takes you further from God.
The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science. By "foundation" you can only mean a religious foundation where the truths have nothing to do with science. They're religious truths based upon faith, not scientific truths based upon evidence. --Percy
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