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Author Topic:   The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 136 of 254 (777426)
01-30-2016 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Tanypteryx
01-30-2016 12:40 PM


Re: Ironic Justice
Landowners Inside FBI Perimeter: 'We’re Psychologically Exhausted'

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 137 of 254 (777434)
01-31-2016 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Tanypteryx
01-30-2016 8:09 PM


remaining 4
Hopefully they'll round up the last 4 without incident. They can coral them in a small area and wait them out or pick them up one by one.
Shut off their access to phones and internet and visitors. And watch them with drones 24/7 ...

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by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-30-2016 8:09 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2016 10:12 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 138 of 254 (777436)
01-31-2016 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by RAZD
01-31-2016 9:16 AM


Suicide by COP
The FBI releases video of LaVoy Finicum's fatal confrontation with law enforcement to dispel rumors
The FBI has released video tonight of the shooting death of LaVoy Finicum to dispel any rumors that he had had his hands up and was trying to surrender to police. The FBI’s Special Agent in Charge Gregory T. Bretzing held a press conference to explain the events surrounding the arrest of Ammon Bundy (and others), along with the fatal shooting of LaVoy Finicum. Finicum can be seen running from the initial stop in his pick-up truck, with passengers Ryan Payne, Shawna Cox and a woman the FBI declined to identify. The video was captured by aerial camera and shows Finicum driving into a snow back, barely missing a law enforcement officer. He immediately jumped from the vehicle, at first with his hands up as he yelled at law enforcement, but then clearly reaching into his pocket multiple times, where the FBI says he did have a gun (update: a loaded 9 mm semi-automatic handgun.)
The video can be viewed below, with key parts from 8:00 to 9:35 mark (graphic content):
[/quote]
And starting at the 8 minute mark when Finicum drives off from the traffic stop (preceding video is rather boring):
He puts his hands down and reaches into his pockets before being shot.
Nuff said.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 139 of 254 (777439)
01-31-2016 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by RAZD
01-31-2016 10:12 AM


Where should the militias make their next stand?
Where should the militias make their next stand?
The short answer is that they shouldn't, but it would be difficult to convince them that they are delusional, so
quote:
It’s the question that’s popping up all over Facebook. It’s also the question that proves the militia movement, as it is today, is doomed. The definition of insanity is to repeat the same behavior and expect different results. Static positions and stand-offs are referred to as last stands because when they are over, the people involved are either in a cage or a grave. This article may upset many within the movement, but it needs to be said before more life is wasted.
The stand-off scenario is just a symptom of a disease spreading like cancer through the militias. Some in the militia movement have taken to flocking around those with a flare for racist rhetoric, over-the-top Facebook leadership, and sensationalist behavior. They follow the pronouncements of these individuals and exist inside an echo chamber where those who disagree are shut out. All of these things are crippling to a movement attempting to establish itself.
And you have to be relatively stupid, imho, to create a stand-off situation for petulant reasons.
quote:
Several of the organizations which are seen as leaders within the movement suggested the US Government was going to use Delta Force or some other elite military unit to attack those in Oregon. It’s sensationalist. It’s designed to convince the reader the US government needs to deploy the US military’s most elite unit to deal with a group of men who didn’t think far enough ahead to bring food when they volunteered to place themselves under siege. Elite units are not needed to take down people who willing pin themselves down and allow their opposition to choose the time and place of the battle. Any local SWAT team will be able to handle that.
The echo chamber that has formed around the militia movement is staggering. Dissenting voices are removed. A person needs to conform or they are shut out.
The end result of these four critical issues in the movement is a group of people led by the less intelligent, inflamed to anger by those profiting from it, encouraged by organizations that don’t have a clue what they are talking about, and lacking an outside voice to provide a reality check. Does this sound like a cohesive paramilitary organization?
To me it looks like the militia "movement" is just an excuse to walk around with big guns and play war games, looking for some excuse to create a standoff but in the end not achieving a single thing of note.
They -- and the closely related "open carry" nuts -- may achieve one thing in the end ... ironically: the banning of assault/war weapons to protect people from this insanity.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-31-2016 1:17 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 141 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2016 3:08 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 147 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-01-2016 3:41 AM RAZD has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 140 of 254 (777440)
01-31-2016 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by RAZD
01-31-2016 11:04 AM


Re: Where should the militias make their next stand?
To me it looks like the militia "movement" is just an excuse to walk around with big guns and play war games, looking for some excuse to create a standoff but in the end not achieving a single thing of note.
Protest over Finicum death rolls through Burns
3% of Idaho planning a protest in Burns on Monday
What would really be ironic is a shoot out between the gun nuts waving the American flag and those waving confederate flag.
.
Sadly, The dimwits are aligned with the right-wingnut politicians and the land and wildlife will suffer. Op-ed: Public Lands Initiative takes an Oregon-standoff approach to grazing
quote:
Not surprisingly, I guess, this "grand bargain" proposes to reward the Bundys of the West with the kind of frozen livestock grazing and lack of national authority for which the Bundys thought they had to pick up guns and occupy the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. The PLI would create a new kind of "un-wilderness," tying the hands of land managers. In the grand bargain's newly designated wilderness areas, National Conservation Areas, Special Management Areas and Recreation Zones, existing livestock numbers would be mandated to remain the same, or increase. In this new "wilderness," ranchers could use ATVs to place feed and bulldozers to build new infrastructure. The Forest Service would be barred from considering the continued existence, or disappearance, of species or species habitat when making grazing decisions.
quote:
Before the gunmen occupied Malheur Wildlife Refuge in January 2016, did they know that there had been a successful collaboration between ranchers who graze cattle on the refuge, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and environmentalists?
As Colby Marshall, member of a ranching family that has long retained grazing permits on the refuge, reports on a recently finalized comprehensive conservation plan for the refuge, "Ultimately, at the end of the day, ranchers and environmentalists all agreed it was excellent. What it did is it provided flexibility for the public lands managers and the ranchers."
.
The one positive result from the standoff is that more than $100,000 has been raised for causes that the Bundyites and Bubbas hate. Getting Occupiers of the Historic Oregon Malheur Evicted - G.O.H.O.M.E.
Friends of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, Americans for Responsible Solutions, Burns Paiute Tribe, and Southern Poverty Law Center.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2016 11:04 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 141 of 254 (777445)
01-31-2016 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by RAZD
01-31-2016 11:04 AM


Re: Where should the militias make their next stand?
Where should the militias make their next stand?
Leavenworth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2016 11:04 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-31-2016 3:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 142 of 254 (777447)
01-31-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by RAZD
01-31-2016 10:12 AM


Re: Suicide by COP
On the video, there were enough cops and guns in the area for protection. Why did it take almost 10 minuets before anyone went to Finicum? I realize the other fools were still in the truck but, my god, they're cops. You shoot someone aren't you supposed to at least try to render some assistance? Or was this supposed to be a shoot-to-kill?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 143 of 254 (777448)
01-31-2016 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by AZPaul3
01-31-2016 3:08 PM


Re: Where should the militias make their next stand?
Where should the militias make their next stand?
Leavenworth.
I'm still in favor of Guantanamo.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2016 3:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2016 4:07 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 144 of 254 (777450)
01-31-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Tanypteryx
01-31-2016 3:35 PM


Re: Where should the militias make their next stand?
That brings up another question. I hadn't heard anyone say whether any charges will be brought under The Patriot Act?
Title VIII: "dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State" and are intended to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population," "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion,"
Via Wiki
Would be most appropriate in this case. The penalties, I think, are a bit stiffer than "interference with a federal officer in the performance of his duties" and "unauthorized use of federal facilities" I keep hearing about.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-31-2016 3:35 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 145 of 254 (777451)
01-31-2016 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by AZPaul3
01-31-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Suicide by COP
You shoot someone aren't you supposed to at least try to render some assistance? Or was this supposed to be a shoot-to-kill?
Maybe it was obvious he was dead. So far I don't think there have been any reports of how many times he was shot or where he was hit.
ABE: I have also been wondering if there were body cam videos of the shooting? Maybe those are too graphic or they are withholding them for any trials.
Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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 Message 142 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2016 3:34 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 146 of 254 (777457)
02-01-2016 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by RAZD
01-31-2016 10:12 AM


Re: Suicide by COP
He puts his hands down and reaches into his pockets before being shot.
Nuff said.
He reached twice, and given the fact that they were known to be armed and known to be hostile is pretty much a guaranteed death sentence if you make any sudden movements like he displayed.
All kinds of Sovereign Citizen types are claiming that it was a "murder," which is, of course, a ridiculous allegation given the evidence.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 147 of 254 (777458)
02-01-2016 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by RAZD
01-31-2016 11:04 AM


Re: Where should the militias make their next stand?
They -- and the closely related "open carry" nuts -- may achieve one thing in the end ... ironically: the banning of assault/war weapons to protect people from this insanity.
That's what I've been trying to convince them of. They are an even bigger threat to gun rights than even the strictest gun control advocate.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2016 11:04 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 254 (777459)
02-01-2016 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by AZPaul3
01-31-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Suicide by COP
On the video, there were enough cops and guns in the area for protection. Why did it take almost 10 minuets before anyone went to Finicum? I realize the other fools were still in the truck but, my god, they're cops. You shoot someone aren't you supposed to at least try to render some assistance? Or was this supposed to be a shoot-to-kill?
Yes, certainly, but not until the scene is safe. The vehicles hadn't been cleared yet of other threats and I'm willing to bet the FBI entertained the notion that the militants could have been baiting them to the vehicle which may have been rigged with explosives.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 149 of 254 (777460)
02-01-2016 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Tanypteryx
01-31-2016 4:23 PM


Re: Suicide by COP
Maybe it was obvious he was dead. So far I don't think there have been any reports of how many times he was shot or where he was hit.
ABE: I have also been wondering if there were body cam videos of the shooting? Maybe those are too graphic or they are withholding them for any trials.
Possibly. But it seems obvious that they wanted that drone footage released immediately to dispel any rumors of misconduct on the part of the Feds. The images speak for themselves.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-31-2016 4:23 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 150 of 254 (777886)
02-11-2016 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Hyroglyphx
02-01-2016 3:41 AM


unintended consequences?
Oops ... Daddy Bundy busted ...
Worker threw exception | www.rawstory.com | Cloudflare
quote:
BUSTED: Rancher and right-wing tax-dodging darling Cliven Bundy arrested in Oregon
EvC Forum: Information Bundy, the scofflaw Nevada rancher whose dispute over grazing fees led to a 2014 armed showdown with the federal government, was arrested late Wednesday in Oregon as he went to lend support to armed militants holed up at a wildlife preserve.
The 74-year-old Bundy was charged with conspiracy to interfere with a federal officer the same federal charge two of his sons face in connection with the Jan. 2 takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
Now he has more serious charges than tax evasion.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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