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Author Topic:   More Lies for God
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 28 (21394)
11-02-2002 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NimLore
11-02-2002 4:28 PM


Originally posted by NimLore:
And I disagree with you that God has left it up to man.. because it in my experience God has very much been part of it.. I very much believe and know God to be alive and well and willing to partake with his creation..
And you know this how?
It only took him six days to create all we see, he took a day of rest and the rest of the time has been him being active in what he has made.
And your proof of this is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NimLore, posted 11-02-2002 4:28 PM NimLore has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NimLore, posted 11-02-2002 6:08 PM nos482 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 17 of 28 (21399)
11-02-2002 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by John
11-02-2002 4:24 PM


[QUOTE][B]People tamper with evidence for a hundred different reasons. Science is set up so that these deceptions eventually get worked out. It is called 'peer review' and 'reproducibility of results'[/QUOTE]
[/B]
The problem with lieing in science is that you always get caught. Then you get sacrificed (well, discredited).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by John, posted 11-02-2002 4:24 PM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 28 (21401)
11-02-2002 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NimLore
11-02-2002 4:28 PM


quote:
Originally posted by NimLore:
because it in my experience God has very much been part of it..
Nos is on the right tack here. What is this experience?
quote:
I very much believe and know God to be alive and well and willing to partake with his creation..
Respectfully, I don't care much about your belief, but what is the basis for your knowledge that God is alive and well?
quote:
It only took him six days to create all we see, he took a day of rest and the rest of the time has been him being active in what he has made.
Again, how do you know this?
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
{Closed first quote - Adminnemooseus}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NimLore, posted 11-02-2002 4:28 PM NimLore has not replied

  
NimLore
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 28 (21415)
11-02-2002 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by nos482
11-02-2002 5:15 PM


I know this because God is very active in my life...
but my objective here is not to convince you of God, I do not need to prove it when I am allready very secure in my belief of it.. just as secure in it as when I sit into a chair.. that is what faith aught to be like. I love my faith and have no shame in it.
My proof of the six days is all around us... the reason you can not see that is cause you choose to not acknowledge God and give him thanks for the good things of life and for the trials... you have given up on the Creator and exchanged Him to worship that which is created.
Can you give me proof that God is not real?
[This message has been edited by NimLore, 11-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by nos482, posted 11-02-2002 5:15 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by John, posted 11-02-2002 6:27 PM NimLore has not replied
 Message 21 by nos482, posted 11-02-2002 7:09 PM NimLore has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 28 (21420)
11-02-2002 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NimLore
11-02-2002 6:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by NimLore:
My proof of the six days is all around us...
Where? Assertations are meaningless.
quote:
Can you give me proof that God is not real?
Can you give me proof that Krishna is not real, or Set, or Odin, or the Easter Bunnie? You cannot give evidence for the non-existence of something because if it does not exist there IS NO evidence.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by NimLore, posted 11-02-2002 6:08 PM NimLore has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 28 (21426)
11-02-2002 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NimLore
11-02-2002 6:08 PM


Originally posted by NimLore:
I know this because God is very active in my life...
How?
but my objective here is not to convince you of God, I do not need to prove it when I am allready very secure in my belief of it.. just as secure in it as when I sit into a chair.. that is what faith aught to be like. I love my faith and have no shame in it.
Isn't that blasphemy? Aren't you suppose to love your god only instead? It is not the same thing. It's like loving a painting of a woman instead of the woman herself.
My proof of the six days is all around us... the reason you can not see that is cause you choose to not acknowledge God and give him thanks for the good things of life and for the trials... you have given up on the Creator and exchanged Him to worship that which is created.
That is like saying that sticking a banana in your ear keeps tigers away. And how do you know this, because there are none around...
Can you give me proof that God is not real?
I'm an agnostic, it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a creator of all. Everything else is just speculation and just plain wishful thinking.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 11-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by NimLore, posted 11-02-2002 6:08 PM NimLore has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 22 of 28 (21452)
11-03-2002 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by NimLore
11-02-2002 3:17 PM


quote:
Originally posted by NimLore:
For one thing.. God does not need man in order to prove his existance... and the lies of man do not disprove God, even if someone is trying to lie for God..
One thing I will say to the extent of people lieing for God.. how about the evolutionists tampering with evidence? Even the greatest scientists use the writings of others as factual and if the writing that they used as factual proves to be erronous then so to will there theory unless of course it is designed to go against the argument.. yeah it happens.
I sure hope that those Christians fix the erronous passage too.
And as to the comment on it bein ok to lie for God.. Outrageous!.. again God does not need man to prove him, there is proof enough.

Hello NimLore, hope you are well.
‘For one thing.. God does not need man in order to prove his existance...’
**How can God prove his existence WITHOUT man? The followers of the Bible only know that there’s a God because he allegedly spoke to man through prophets. How would you know that God created the universe in 6 days if ‘Moses’ hadn’t written about it in Genesis? So, in fact, God does need man in order to prove his existence. Think of it this way, would you know to pray to Jesus if you hadn’t read about him in the bible?
‘and the lies of man do not disprove God, even if someone is trying to lie for God.’
**No one has to lie to disprove God, you first have to prove that God exists in order for anyone to try and refute it whether by lying or not. No one has proved God exists, so until they do, he remains a fantasy figure.
’One thing I will say to the extent of people lieing for God.. how about the evolutionists tampering with evidence?’
** Could you give an example please?
‘Even the greatest scientists use the writings of others as factual’
**Yes, only if they haven’t been proven false, unlike the owners of the website I wrote to.
‘and if the writing that they used as factual proves to be erronous then so to will there theory’
**Yes, this is how science works!! If the ‘facts’ used by a scientist are proven erroneous then the scientists has to change his theory, as his ‘facts’ have been rejected by his peers.
‘unless of course it is designed to go against the argument’
**Why would a scientist use ‘facts’ that are designed to go against their argument?
.. yeah it happens.’
**Example ?
’And as to the comment on it bein ok to lie for God.. Outrageous!.. again God does not need man to prove him, there is proof enough.’
** Such as ?
Best wishes
Brian
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NimLore, posted 11-02-2002 3:17 PM NimLore has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 23 of 28 (21464)
11-03-2002 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
10-31-2002 2:49 PM


Replying belatedly to the opening message of this thread, Creationists, like evolutionists, hold their beliefs sincerely. And Creationists, like evolutionists, make mistakes. And Creationists, like evolutionists, often are short of time to correct mistakes. And from personal experience I know that maintaining a website takes lots of time.
Answers in Action looks like a tiny website with not many resources. Did your email actually reach Bob and Gretchen Passantino, authors of the Is the Bible Reliable article you criticized, or only a webmaster or secretary who had to contact them and wait for an answer and corrections?
Anyway, I don't think people who make mistakes should be called liars. I don't even think people who make mistakes they don't correct should be called liars. Sloppy? Sure. Irresponsible? Of course. Liars? I don't think so.
That being said, it is possible that the Passantinos are liars. Check out this report on the accuracy of their statements about their credentials: Long time Prominent Cultwatchers Lie about their Credentials, Investigation Reveals
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 10-31-2002 2:49 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by nos482, posted 11-03-2002 8:58 PM Percy has replied
 Message 28 by Brian, posted 11-04-2002 9:36 AM Percy has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 28 (21466)
11-03-2002 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
11-03-2002 6:47 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percipient:
Anyway, I don't think people who make mistakes should be called liars. I don't even think people who make mistakes they don't correct should be called liars. Sloppy? Sure. Irresponsible? Of course. Liars? I don't think so.
Many of them do this intentionally. They have nothing else.
That being said, it is possible that the Passantinos are liars. Check out this report on the accuracy of their statements about their credentials: Long time Prominent Cultwatchers Lie about their Credentials, Investigation Reveals
--Percy
Of course they are lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 11-03-2002 6:47 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 11-03-2002 9:48 PM nos482 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 25 of 28 (21471)
11-03-2002 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by nos482
11-03-2002 8:58 PM


About the credentials of the Passantinos:
nos482 writes:
Of course they are lying.
But you don't know that. You've only read an article. How do you know the information in the article is accurate? And if it's not accurate, are you lying? Or simply mistaken?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by nos482, posted 11-03-2002 8:58 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nos482, posted 11-04-2002 5:26 AM Percy has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 28 (21499)
11-04-2002 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Percy
11-03-2002 9:48 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
About the credentials of the Passantinos:
nos482 writes:
Of course they are lying.
But you don't know that. You've only read an article. How do you know the information in the article is accurate? And if it's not accurate, are you lying? Or simply mistaken?
--Percy

Q: How do you know a creationists is lying?
A: Their mouth is moving.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 11-03-2002 9:48 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Admin, posted 11-04-2002 7:46 AM nos482 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 27 of 28 (21505)
11-04-2002 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by nos482
11-04-2002 5:26 AM


Nos482:
Your posting privileges have been suspended for 24 hours. You may resume activity here on Tuesday.
------------------
--EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nos482, posted 11-04-2002 5:26 AM nos482 has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 28 of 28 (21513)
11-04-2002 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
11-03-2002 6:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Replying belatedly to the opening message of this thread, Creationists, like evolutionists, hold their beliefs sincerely. And Creationists, like evolutionists, make mistakes. And Creationists, like evolutionists, often are short of time to correct mistakes. And from personal experience I know that maintaining a website takes lots of time.
Answers in Action looks like a tiny website with not many resources. Did your email actually reach Bob and Gretchen Passantino, authors of the Is the Bible Reliable article you criticized, or only a webmaster or secretary who had to contact them and wait for an answer and corrections?
Anyway, I don't think people who make mistakes should be called liars. I don't even think people who make mistakes they don't correct should be called liars. Sloppy? Sure. Irresponsible? Of course. Liars? I don't think so.
That being said, it is possible that the Passantinos are liars. Check out this report on the accuracy of their statements about their credentials: Long time Prominent Cultwatchers Lie about their Credentials, Investigation Reveals
--Percy

Hi Percy.
**I do not doubt that MOST creationists and evolutionists hold their beliefs sincerely, and I did state in my original post that I am perfectly aware that mistakes can happen, we are only human after all. I know as well as the next person how difficult it can be to get time to correct mistakes, but 6 months to delete a passage from a web-site! As you maintain a website you know it only takes less than a minute to delete a passage from a page.
The email I received as a reply was from Gretchen, if it was from the lady herself I have no way of knowing for certain, but it did have her name in the address and was ‘signed’ by her at the bottom of the email.
Also, if it was a webmaster who was in control and awaiting an answer and confirmation, that confirmation was contained in the reply to me as it was acknowledged that an error was made and would be corrected to ‘no archaeological evidence’, so it was agreed an error was made and it would be changed.
This is fine, no problem, but 4 months after the reply nothing has been done. I even informed them that Christians who read this might be innocently misled by this mistake, so they have a responsibility to their readers to provide accurate information.
‘Anyway, I don't think people who make mistakes should be called liars. I don't even think people who make mistakes they don't correct should be called liars. Sloppy? Sure. Irresponsible? Of course. Liars? I don't think so.’
**I totally agree that people who make mistakes should not be called liars we all make mistakes. I think that not correcting your mistakes doesn’t necessarily make you a liar either, as you said just sloppy, or irresponsible. However, I think that in the context of the article ‘Is the Bible reliable’ the Passantinos obviously set out to sensationalise the Bible, they try to make it something that it isn’t, an amazingly accurate historical record. If they removed the error then the bible loses a little ‘sensationalism’ in this particular article.
You can see how this is set up by the opening line ‘Ignorance of the facts concerning the trustworthiness of the Bible can be embarrassing for critics’. So they clearly need a ‘fact’ to support this assertion. These two are obviously so poor at research that they couldn’t find a good example of the trustworthiness of the bible (the Mesha Stele or The Code of Hammurabi would have been good examples), so they made one up. They even said that ‘for many years doubters disputed the New Testament accounts concerning Pontius Pilate.’ This is a basic high school error, not referencing the source of a claim, but, again, their claim is designed to sensationalise the Bible.
Personally I think that if someone makes claim X, and then acknowledge that claim X is an error, and continue to promote claim X, then that makes them a liar as they are aware that what they are claiming is incorrect.
Granted, time should be given to correct the error, but 6 months? I still haven’t had a reply to the email I sent them on the same day that I started this thread.
Thank you very much for the link you posted, I found it very interesting. It never fails to amaze me the number of ‘Christian Scholars’ who claim to have qualifications and/or membership of respected associations who are simply making it up.
Thanks again for taking the time to post the link,
Best Wishes
Brian
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 11-03-2002 6:47 PM Percy has not replied

  
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