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Author Topic:   Anti-Science bill in Indiana.....
Perdition
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 1592
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 31 of 154 (650854)
02-03-2012 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by hooah212002
02-03-2012 10:54 AM


Instead, it focuses on teaching these as "origin" stories.

Could they also include the origin stories of Superman, Batman, Wolverine, Iron Man, etc? Or does it specifically call out only the orgin of humankind?


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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 154 (650868)
02-03-2012 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Perdition
02-03-2012 10:21 AM


Re: Bill Heading to House
I figure I need a different angle since facts aren't working. I think one would have to argue from a Christian angle to make any dent. I'm only one letter, but if I can create a spark who knows.

Since my rep is or was also an MD, I didn't know if there was anything that might impact his profession.

Here are a few comments from our local newspaper in the opinion section today.

This gentleman said only six were listed of the hundreds of religions and concluded with:

Never mind the constitutionality. I'm just wondering if they'll have any time to teach science in science class.

Apparently a teacher had been fired for discussing creation science in his chemistry class. This gentleman feels:

If school boards allowed the teaching of creation science, any student, regardless of relgion, could pass the class by demonstrating that they understood what was taught. That's not establishing religion in America. ... More than 50 percent of our school's students (1,000-plus) petitioned for creation science inclusion in the curriculum. ...If the peopl eof Indiana want something from their government, it is the government's duty to represent its people.

This gentleman brings up Georges Lemaitre, a Belgian physicist and cosmologist, and Roman Catholic Priest.

One day after celebrating Mass, his con-celebrant asked him how, as a devout Christian, he could subscribe to such non-literal biblical viewpoints. Lemaitre replied: "The Bible teaches you as much about science as a quadratic equation teaches you about God. Both are pathways to the same truth."

Those are some pieces from the opinion page. Other than a means to put religion in front of children, I don't understand why creation science needs to be brought into a science class? Couldn't I also argue that it is the job of the religious institution to teach origin of life per their belief? Why the school system?

quote:
Maybe if you argue that putting "creationism" up against the heaps and heaps of evidence for evolution will tend to make kids even more sure of evolution and that creationism is false. It could lead to a crisis of faith and end up creating far more athiests than they would want.

The second gentleman I quoted stated that they petitioned the school corporation in 2000 to present the evidence in support of special creation in science classes alongside evolution.

It there one piece of supposed evidence for special creation that alongside evolution would look ridiculous to a physician?


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Perdition
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 1592
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(2)
Message 33 of 154 (650871)
02-03-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
02-03-2012 12:05 PM


Re: Bill Heading to House
It there one piece of supposed evidence for special creation that alongside evolution would look ridiculous to a physician?

I wasn't aware that there was any evidence for creation.

Since he's a physician, maybe you could appeal to his thoughts on faith healing or self-diagnosis using WebMD or something. The fact that non-scientists are trying to push what is taught in science class would be akin to non-doctors prescribing medicine or diagnosing illnesses. When you add the religious aspect into it, you're even further down the rabit hole. See Scientology and their thoughts on Psychiatry (or Psychology, not sure which) and the whole "vaccines cause autism" scare.


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Trixie
Member (Idle past 87 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 34 of 154 (650877)
02-03-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by hooah212002
02-03-2012 10:54 AM


I like the idea of teaching al of the different versions, buthae the same concern as hoa when he says

these seemingly will be taught/discussed in a science class/setting. That is where the problem is, IMO. These creation myths are most likely going to be given factual credence.

The understanding of science amongst the general public is woeful already and I worry about giving up time in the science class to this sort of thing. I'm also concerned about the confusion this might sow.

My son, in Year 7, has been taught about different religions in school, but they have been taught as part of religious lessons. However, none of it centred on origins and creation stories, but spent most of the time explaining religious festivals like Eid, Ramadan, Hannukah, Passover, Christmas. It's given him a good understanding of cultures he comes across, but he remains a firm proponent of evolution, based on his visits to the Natural History Museum. I've just quizzed him on this and,while he believes in God, he doesn't see what this belief in God has to do with evolution. To him it's like looking for a link between football and maths.


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 35 of 154 (650878)
02-03-2012 12:34 PM


Heh.......
The little piece that mentions Scientology was put in there by a Democratic rep named Vi Simpson, who is my hero for this week. She added it to effectively "neuter" the bill, similarly to how a Texas rep tried (but failed) to sterilize the one here last year that allowed women who were forced to have a sonogram prior to an abortion to force the Y-chromosome donor involved in her situation to have a vasectomy.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/.../2012/02/indiana_senate.php

http://www.texastribune.org/...attack-abortion-sonogram-bill


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Trixie
Member (Idle past 87 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 36 of 154 (650880)
02-03-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
02-03-2012 12:05 PM


Re: Bill Heading to House
I dont think you're going to find a bit of evidence for special creation that would look ridiculous to a physician since there isn't any evidence. I wonder if the information on the broken Vitamin C gene in humans and apes would work. Creationists ascribe it to The Fall, although why apes were punished as well is beyod me The guinea pigs must just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and got caught in the crossfire. I have seen the broken Vitamin C gene being used as evidence that The Fall happened (on this very site think)
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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 37 of 154 (650939)
02-03-2012 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Coragyps
02-03-2012 12:34 PM


Re: Heh.......
So her addition turned it into a comparative religion class that takes place in the science class. That might be another angle. Why turn science class or any other class into a comparative religion class when students can already take a comparative religion class to compare religions and their views on various subjects.

Do we really want to start comparing a religious view of history in history class or a religious view of health in health class?


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3162
Joined: 08-12-2009
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 38 of 154 (650968)
02-03-2012 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
02-03-2012 2:57 PM


Re: Heh.......
So her addition turned it into a comparative religion class that takes place in the science class. That might be another angle. Why turn science class or any other class into a comparative religion class when students can already take a comparative religion class to compare religions and their views on various subjects.

Would you have preferred they left it as it was, teaching only christian creationism?


“Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion.” Joseph Campbell

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4972
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 39 of 154 (650981)
02-03-2012 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by hooah212002
02-03-2012 4:19 PM


Re: Heh.......
purpledawn writes:

Why turn science class or any other class into a comparative religion class when students can already take a comparative religion class to compare religions and their views on various subjects.


Would you have preferred they left it as it was, teaching only christian creationism?

The later would be more honest, but it would mean that the course would not be taught in public school.

The above seems relate to purpledawn's point. Putting a comparative religion course into a science class, unless the science class was studying anthropology, would be totally out of place. I don't think we include other similar "sciences" in science class, so there is no constitutional compliant reason for such a curriculum.

Although it doesn't come up much in discussion here, but I could imagine an effort to force a Creation/Flood friendly version of per-history into K-12 history classes.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 40 of 154 (651013)
02-03-2012 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by hooah212002
02-03-2012 4:19 PM


Re: Heh.......
quote:
Would you have preferred they left it as it was, teaching only christian creationism?
Not really the point of what I was saying, but I do need to make sure I'm not sparking them to do just that.

Edited by purpledawn, : Wrong Avatar


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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 41 of 154 (651034)
02-04-2012 5:56 AM


Opening Statements
How's this for a opener to the letter?

As a Christian, I am deeply disappointed that our Senate thought it was wise to ignore a U.S. Supreme Court ruling and made allowance for a Christian Fundamentalist belief to be taught in our science classes. On top of that, to make this bill look less intolerant of other religious beliefs, various religious beliefs concerning origins of life are to be taught. How dare they expose our Christian children to potential spiritual crisis and family conflict.

Obviously spiritual crisis is something that parents will have to clean up, not the government. Christians should not want to cause family conflicts.

Another thought concerns court costs. Wouldn't tax payers be paying for that should it happen? Not a good use of our money.

Are fundamentalist and creationists in the minority among Christians?

Is faith healing more a fundamentalist belief?
Would a doctor want that taught in health class along with healing beliefs from other religions?


Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4972
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 42 of 154 (651040)
02-04-2012 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by purpledawn
02-04-2012 5:56 AM


Re: Opening Statements
Obviously spiritual crisis is something that parents will have to clean up, not the government. Christians should not want to cause family conflicts

I don't really like the above wording. I think a creationist would find it insincere.

I think I'd comment on the possibly of atheist teachers ridiculing and denigrating Christian beliefs by giving equal weight and treatment to obviously bogus stories like the ancient Greek/Roman origin stories or to the creation story in Norse myths.

And what if some teacher decides to present Bible type Creationism by using the Koran, and totally skips the presentation of Genesis? That would seem to me to be allowed by the Indiana legislation.

Despite any fears I have that the original law might pass muster with the current Supreme Court, I think a law or school board policy designed to prevent the above types of mischief would not seem Constitutional even to Justice Scalia.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 43 of 154 (651046)
02-04-2012 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
02-04-2012 6:48 AM


Re: Opening Statements
The quote box holds what I've written so far. The rest are just thoughts. My rep is an MD and a Methodist.

quote:
I think I'd comment on the possibly of atheist teachers ridiculing and denigrating Christian beliefs by giving equal weight and treatment to obviously bogus stories like the ancient Greek/Roman origin stories or to the creation story in Norse myths.
I saw that approach in a letter that was sent before the vote. My guess is that any school that entertains the idea of teaching creation science, would probably address the Christian loyalties of their science teacher(s). Supposedly the school system would still have a choice on whether to teach creation science or not.

We start seeing good science teachers railroaded out and creationist teachers come in, we can probably guess what the school is planning.


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3162
Joined: 08-12-2009
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 44 of 154 (651054)
02-04-2012 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
02-04-2012 6:48 AM


Re: Opening Statements
I think I'd comment on the possibly of atheist teachers ridiculing and denigrating Christian beliefs

Yes, indeed. Demonize those evil fucking atheists. Give people even more reason to be disgusted at the word atheist.


“Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion.” Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 154 (651069)
02-04-2012 10:01 AM


More Opinions From The Local Newspaper
We have a Christian who also feels that creation should not be taught in the science class since it is a belief, but..

What we do need to do is treat macroevolution (one species evolving from another) as a science and not the belief system as it is now taught in science class. If it were evaluated using the scientific method it would be rejected.

The second is also a Christian, but he is not for the bill and refers to an earlier guest column written on 1 Feb.

Creationists have been forced to accept micro-evolution. bacteria evolve before our eyes. The pastor does not think that macro-evolution explains the origins of life. (That's the theory that two different species have a common ancestor.) How does the reverend and his biology teachers explain the fact that the genetic blueprint of the chimpanzee and humans are 96 percent identical?

Macro-evolution seems to be the issue. Are both their definitions correct?

I did a search for macro-evolution to try and get an understanding of the issue. I found this post by Nuggin (Message 4) that gave a good idea of the difference between micro and macro. Are there any more good explanations of the difference? Any that might be of interest to a doctor?


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