Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 46 of 284 (576717)
08-25-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Huntard
08-25-2010 1:31 AM


I said many more than 1000 use hospitals. I don't have figures but I would say that 1000 times more people use hospitals than use prayer.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2010 1:31 AM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2010 3:36 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 47 of 284 (576719)
08-25-2010 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by archaeologist
08-25-2010 5:32 AM


as for the poster whose wife is a 'doctor' you attack christians, she is fair game.
We don't attack Christians, we attack kooks whatever their beliefs are.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by archaeologist, posted 08-25-2010 5:32 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 284 (576725)
08-25-2010 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by archaeologist
08-25-2010 5:32 AM


archaeologist writes:
for the former, i have. for the latter not so much. you all do the same thing, you will blindly defend systems knowing they are bad, just because i or some other christian supports healing by prayer and exposes those inferior medical practices.
To expose something you must publish the study that supports your assertions.
If you have the data to support your expos then this is certainly a great opportunity to present it.
as for the poster whose wife is a 'doctor' you attack christians, she is fair game.
I am a Christian. Am I 'fair game'?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by archaeologist, posted 08-25-2010 5:32 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by archaeologist, posted 08-26-2010 5:07 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 284 (576731)
08-25-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by archaeologist
08-24-2010 6:47 AM


without God there is NO morality.
I'm sorry but that is not just false, it is misrepresenting what the Bible actually says.
In Genesis 3 God himself says that
quote:
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
therefore man has the capability to determine morality.
BUT... the Bible goes even further and says that at times man is charged to even instruct God on matters of morality, to correct God when God is about to make an immoral decision.
Read Genesis 18.
quote:
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
there are no human rights without religious beliefs or did you learn nothing from your history lessons on the nazis, the japanese, the khmer rouge, the communists...? you just do not know what you are talking about and let your hatred do your thinking for you
More nonsense. Hitler was a devout Christian and acted based on his Christian beliefs.
From Mein Kampf:
quote:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by archaeologist, posted 08-24-2010 6:47 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by archaeologist, posted 08-26-2010 5:09 PM jar has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 50 of 284 (576749)
08-25-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
07-26-2009 8:31 PM


The Good Samaritan and the Bad Parent
Hi, DA.
I noted in your list of cases that only one involved an injury--the toddler who bled to death because he was a hemophiliac.
The mistrust of physicians made some sense in the era recorded in the Bible: they had little to offer against disease, most of it harmful. Without a theory of disease, taking an illness as the judgment of God wasn't entirely unreasonable, since nothing physicians could do made any difference, and sufferers lived or died in an otherwise willy-nilly fashion.
Still, wounds were washed and bound. For example, the Good Samaritan did that-- he didn't merely pray that God's will be done.
Similarly, prayer-only healers today lack a theory of disease: God's will must be done, but we can petition the Lord with prayer to spare some child already condemned by being sinful and unclean (the biblical explanation of disease). Nonetheless, in the only case of injury you cite, they did bandage the boy's cut.
The contradiction is obvious. If survival is a matter of prayer and God's will, then why interfere with injuries and not with illness?
The mystery of illness gives these parents the cover they need, psychologically and socially. Mikey slashing his femoral artery on a fence is unmistakably an event in the natural world, and they treat it as such--what parent, even among these pitiful examples, would say, no, let the boy bleed; God will decide. Nor, I suspect, would they say, no, don't set my broken leg, it's up to God. Nor would the courts and legislatures fold so readily in the face of parents who kept EMTs from taking their car-struck kid to the ER.
These modern parents also lack a theory of disease other than the supernatural. Their victims die from their parents' ignorance, not their failure of faith or God's lack of mercy. An educational system that cannot sustain the teaching of evolution as a fact cannot reliably teach the real causes of disease. Ignorance loves a vacuum.
So I'd say faith-only healing should, at most, only be allowed at or after the age of consent.
After all, you shouldn't be able to kill your kids at a younger age than strangers can fuck them.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-26-2009 8:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 51 of 284 (576780)
08-25-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by bluescat48
08-25-2010 11:04 AM


I said many more than 1000 use hospitals. I don't have figures but I would say that 1000 times more people use hospitals than use prayer.
Don't most people use both?
An interesting question would be whether people who don't pray are less healthy. I wonder if I can find out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by bluescat48, posted 08-25-2010 11:04 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Woodsy, posted 08-25-2010 4:53 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 52 of 284 (576801)
08-25-2010 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dr Adequate
08-25-2010 3:36 PM


An interesting question would be whether people who don't pray are less healthy. I wonder if I can find out.
It's not the same thing, but I have seen a study mentioned that had people pray for some heart patients and not for others. In some cases the patients knew they were being prayed for, in other cases they did not know. If I remember rightly, the Templeton Foundation was involved.
The only group that showed a difference was those patients who knew they were being prayed for, and they had worse outcomes than the other two groups.
It would indeed be interesting to know the result of the patients themselves praying.
]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2010 3:36 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by archaeologist, posted 08-26-2010 5:04 PM Woodsy has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 284 (576954)
08-26-2010 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Woodsy
08-25-2010 4:53 PM


The only group that showed a difference was those patients who knew they were being prayed for, and they had worse outcomes than the other two groups.
this is the exact opposite from what i have heard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Woodsy, posted 08-25-2010 4:53 PM Woodsy has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 284 (576956)
08-26-2010 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
08-25-2010 11:37 AM


i rarely reply to JAR as he is so off it isn't funny but in this case i will make an exception.
To expose something you must publish the study that supports your assertions.
no i don't. i just have to speak the truth. scientific studies are so limited and manipulated that they cannot be counted on.
I am a Christian
no you are not. the word 'christian' means 'christ-like' and Christ did not call any part of the OT a myth, fairy tale and He believed and taught the creative act. you are far from anything christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 11:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 08-26-2010 5:35 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 63 by Coragyps, posted 08-26-2010 7:11 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 64 by Omnivorous, posted 08-26-2010 7:19 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 66 by bluescat48, posted 08-26-2010 7:37 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 284 (576957)
08-26-2010 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
08-25-2010 12:01 PM


and here:
[qs]More nonsense. Hitler was a devout Christian and acted based on his Christian beliefs.
From Mein Kampf:
quote:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."[qs] that is so laughable. that goes against what God said. read 1 John. Hitler was not a christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 12:01 PM jar has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 284 (576959)
08-26-2010 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Huntard
08-25-2010 5:44 AM


And because of people who don't want their children to be treated for a perfectly curable disease.
you really shouldn't criticize nor condemn what you really do not understand. plus it is NOT your call on what other parents do withtheir families, they are responsible not you. you are responsible for raising your family in the correct way which, judging by your posts, you have failed to do as well.
yet you don;t go to a doctor and die.
really? when i was 18 one of my best friends went to the hospital with a curable disease and died. you distort the reality because you hate Christ and christianity.
under your logic the parents would be considered irresponisible and should go to jail. your hatred influences your thinking in the wrong way.
Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2010 5:44 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2010 7:51 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 69 by Huntard, posted 08-27-2010 1:17 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 284 (576960)
08-26-2010 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Nij
08-25-2010 7:32 AM


Don't fucking quotemine me,
i will do what i want, it is my posts and you have no say in the matter,.
And none of your posts are worth replying to because your sheer stupidity and faith influences your thinking at all.
this and the following sentences are the reason you are not getting a response. your hatred shows that you cannot be objective thus any conclusion coming from you, any point, are biased and unacceptable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Nij, posted 08-25-2010 7:32 AM Nij has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 284 (576961)
08-26-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Huntard
08-25-2010 7:27 AM


Well, you can be damn sure that someone suffering from diabetes will most likely have survived if only they'd gotten that insulin shot.
you all need to keep in mind that it is your attitude that keeps me from sayng more. i say the minimal because i know you will reject any reasonable comment i make. your emotionalism is unreliable as you place a greater value on children than you do any other human life and that is wrong.
childrens' lives are NOT greater nor ore important than a father's or a mother's or even a single person's. so you really got to get off this women's thinking mode and see the reality. Children are not immune to things that take place in adult lives. sin is sin and God judges them all the same.
if the children were as nnocent as you think, then they would not have been destroyed in the flood. learn that lesson well, God does not make exceptions for ladies who lower their blouses, hike their skirts or bats their eyes and he does not give free passes to children either. He judges all the same and uses the same criteria for all.
if He didn't then then He would not be God, and could not be trusted. which means that your standards do not matter and parents are given th eright to raise their families as they see fit. i highly doubt you would want an american evangelical forcing you to raise your kids their way--so do not do it to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2010 7:27 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Omnivorous, posted 08-26-2010 7:06 PM archaeologist has replied
 Message 70 by Huntard, posted 08-27-2010 1:30 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 284 (576965)
08-26-2010 5:35 PM


JUST saw this article about a british study, you may find it interesting:
http://news.yahoo.com/...me/eu_med_britain_doctors_and_death
LONDON — Doctors who are atheist or agnostic are twice as likely to make decisions that could end the lives of their terminally ill patients, compared to doctors who are very religious, according to a new study in Britain.
Dr. Clive Seale, a professor at Barts and the London School of Medicine and Dentistry, conducted a random mail survey of more than 3,700 doctors across Britain, of whom 2,923 reported on how they took care of their last terminal patient.
Many of the doctors surveyed were neurologists, doctors specializing in the care of the elderly, and palliative care, though other specialists like family doctors, were also included.
Doctors who described themselves as "extremely" or "very nonreligious" were nearly twice as likely to report having made decisions like providing continuous deep sedation, which could accelerate a patient's death.
To ensure doctors are acting in accordance with their patients' wishes, Seale wrote that "nonreligious doctors should confess their predilections to their patients."

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2010 7:22 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 71 by Huntard, posted 08-27-2010 1:33 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 284 (576966)
08-26-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by archaeologist
08-26-2010 5:07 PM


archaeologist writes:
i rarely reply to JAR as he is so off it isn't funny but in this case i will make an exception.
jar writes:
To expose something you must publish the study that supports your assertions.
no i don't. i just have to speak the truth. scientific studies are so limited and manipulated that they cannot be counted on.
Did you say
quote:
for the former, i have. for the latter not so much. you all do the same thing, you will blindly defend systems knowing they are bad, just because i or some other christian supports healing by prayer and exposes those inferior medical practices.
in the very message I was replying to?
What exactly is your plan to support healing by prayer and expose those inferior medical practices?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by archaeologist, posted 08-26-2010 5:07 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024