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Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 31 of 297 (240479)
09-05-2005 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Sylas
09-04-2005 4:08 AM


Re: Let's not forget the upcoming tragedies.
Hi, Sylas, fascinating when we get two opposing schools of thought in the scientific world, isn`t it?
2001-proposed model Cumbre Vieja-Ward and Day
2002-refutation of W+D`s model-Pararas-Carayannis
2003-confirmation of W+D`s model
Page Not Found | The Guardian
Who knows what 2006 may bring?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 297 (240506)
09-05-2005 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-04-2005 11:07 PM


Lose the excuses.
The best way to start planning how to make sure we will be ready next time, is to make sure that the people that were responsible for this debacle are not anywhere near involved next time

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 297 (240509)
09-05-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-04-2005 11:07 PM


no, screw the blamers.
Let's not waste time worrying about who did what wrong, let's start thinking about how to do it right next time.
no, let's.
quote:
(CNN) -- The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.
Michael Brown also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands.
"Unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Brown told CNN.
"I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," he said.
this guy deserves some blame. i am personally well acquainted with fema's incompetance and non-presence in hurricane disasters. to sit around and place blame on the VICTIMS of a disaster that your own agency is supposed to help prepare for, prevent, and clean up when it is plainly obvious to everyone that it is not serving that purpose is hypocricy at the highest level.
hurricanes are predictable disasters. fema knew the dangers, and it should have been working to reinforce levees months in advance. fema should have been there coordinating the evacuation days in advance, and providing transportation for those that had none. fema should be there now in full force. there are a lot of "shoulds" with this organisation. a lot. they are not doing their job.
they didn't do their job here, in frances either. we were flabbergasted that all they did was give people money if they applied for aid after the fact.
michael brown is not the person to point fingers, especially not at the people he should be saving.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 09-05-2005 12:56 PM arachnophilia has replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 297 (240579)
09-05-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
09-05-2005 7:31 AM


the unpredictability of tropical weather
hurricanes are predictable disasters
They are predictable in the sense that we know ahead of time if one is coming, but they are very unpredictable in regards to the damage they do. There have been hurricanes that did much less damage than we thought they would, and then there are other storms that did much more.
Here's an example. A few years ago a little tropical storm called Allison moved into Houston. It was nothing--a little rain and wind. It moved through and headed North and then stopped. By now it was not even a tropical storm any more--just a "remnant."
Then it came back, over night. Nobody paid much attention. 20 inches of rain, 50,000 homes and businesses flooded, 25 dead. Over a billion dollars of damage.
I've had people tell me--who don't live in places where there are tropical storms--that hurricanes were "overrated." I guess they won't be saying that anymore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 09-05-2005 7:31 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 35 of 297 (240599)
09-05-2005 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Monk
09-04-2005 1:06 PM


once again, monk misses the point
What on earth are you talking about?
Nobody is blaming Bush for the existence of the hurricane.
That's the kind of thing Pat Robertson does, and since he likes Bush he won't do that.
It's the sluggish, seemingly incompetent and disorganized federal response to the hurricane that people are complaining about.
Tell me, who created the Department of Homeland Security? What is the mission and parameters of that department, and who appointed the person to lead that department?
Wouldn't the person or persons who gave somebody a job be responsible if that appointed person didn't do his job adequately?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-05-2005 01:47 PM

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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 36 of 297 (240600)
09-05-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Nighttrain
09-04-2005 9:51 PM


Re: Failing to plan is Planing to fail ...
People were told to go to the Astrodome by the authorities, and many of them did.
But there were no emergency services there. No water, no toilets, no food, no security.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 297 (240602)
09-05-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Nighttrain
09-04-2005 9:51 PM


Re: Failing to plan is Planing to fail ...
quote:
Even a quickie Google will point you to many survival sites on the `net to prepare lists, purify water, how to cope with natural disasters.
How many of those poor people do you think owned computers, let alone had web access?

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 297 (240606)
09-05-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by nator
09-05-2005 1:45 PM


Re: once again, monk misses the point
quote:
It's the sluggish, seemingly incompetent and disorganized federal response to the hurricane that people are complaining about.
Not to mention that in this country an "evacuation plan" is simply to scream, "Okay everyone, get into your cars and leave."

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Monk
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 39 of 297 (240609)
09-05-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
09-05-2005 7:31 AM


Re: no, screw the blamers.
hurricanes are predictable disasters. fema knew the dangers, and it should have been working to reinforce levees months in advance.
Wrong. FEMA is not responsible for reinforcing the levees. It is the responsibility of the Orleans district levee board working in concert with the Corps of Engineers.
fema should have been there coordinating the evacuation days in advance, and providing transportation for those that had none.
Wrong. It is not FEMA’s responsibility to coordinate the evacuation of cities days in advance. It is the state's responsibility and in particular the local authorities, city officials, parish or county officials who have jurisdiction in these affairs. It is the same scenario all over the country in every major metropolitan area.
Here is the 364 buses operated by the New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority (NORTA) that Nagin should have used to evacuate the poor.
Why weren't NORTA's 364 buses used to ferry poor people out of New Orleans before Katrina hit?
Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need. He didn’t exercise his authority.
He {Nagin} also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.
RTA buses never left the RTA lots. There was no water or food provisions brought to the Superdome before Katrina hit. There were no emergency generators brought to either the Superdome or the convention center before the storm hit. These are not the responsibility of FEMA these are local responsibilities.
Source
fema should be there now in full force. there are a lot of "shoulds" with this organisation. a lot. they are not doing their job.
FEMA did not do their job. They were too slow to respond when it became blindingly obvious that state and local officials were helpless.
michael brown is not the person to point fingers, especially not at the people he should be saving.
Michael Brown is indeed responsible in part for the loss of lives and he should be fired.
Some will continue to argue that FEMA should have been involved earlier and that they should have taken over local control of the situation before the storm hit. But that's not how the system works.
Federal, State and Local authorities operate under a system whereby powers and jurisdictions are understood. Not just in New Orleans, but everywhere in this country.
THE SYSTEM: Either live with it or change it.
This message has been edited by Monk, Mon, 09-05-2005 01:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Monk
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 40 of 297 (240612)
09-05-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Chiroptera
09-05-2005 2:06 PM


Re: once again, monk misses the point
Not to mention that in this country an "evacuation plan" is simply to scream, "Okay everyone, get into your cars and leave."
Not true. Google any major city in the US and use key words "evacuation plan" and you will find that every city has them. Should these evacuation plans, developed by local authorities who know the city the best and understand the most efficient means to accomplish wholesale evacuation, be subjugated to some form of generic FEMA plan?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 297 (240615)
09-05-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Monk
09-05-2005 2:40 PM


Re: once again, monk misses the point
Hi, Monk.
I did a quick Google search, and I couldn't find where New Orleans, Louisiana, or the federal government had plans to commandeer trains or buses for transportation, set up assembly points, or provided for refugee camps outside the danger zone. The impression I got was that if people didn't have a means of transportation, a place to go, or a way of providing for themselves they were stuck.
Of course, this was a very quick search and I may have missed it.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 42 of 297 (240617)
09-05-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by robinrohan
09-05-2005 12:56 PM


Re: the unpredictability of tropical weather
They are predictable in the sense that we know ahead of time if one is coming, but they are very unpredictable in regards to the damage they do. There have been hurricanes that did much less damage than we thought they would, and then there are other storms that did much more.
sure. but the damage from this one was pretty much predicted. we knew what would happen if a big enough hurricane hit nola.

אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 43 of 297 (240623)
09-05-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Monk
09-05-2005 2:25 PM


what is fema supposed to do then, monk?
let's go over this for a second. FEMA is the Federal Emergency Management Agency. their sole function is manage emergencies on a federal level. wikipedia puts it like this:
quote:
FEMA coordinates the work of federal, state, and local agencies in responding to floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters.
quote:
* Mitigation: Reducing the severity or likelihood of the hazard.
* Preparedness: Ensuring you have the capability to respond to the hazard.
* Response: Immediate actions taken to save lives, property, the environment, and the economy.
* Recovery: Subsequent actions taken to restore property, jobs, and services.
alright, now, let's review with this in mind.
Wrong. FEMA is not responsible for reinforcing the levees. It is the responsibility of the Orleans district levee board working in concert with the Corps of Engineers.
yes. fema is responsible for reinforcing levees. they are supposed to coordinate efforts with levee boards and the army corp of engineers. they are responsible for managing that sort of thing on a federal level. thus their name.
you see, that falls under the first two categories of their duties. they are supposed to reduce the likelihood or severity of possible disasters, and help prepare for the ones that are foreseeable.
Wrong. It is not FEMA’s responsibility to coordinate the evacuation of cities days in advance. It is the state's responsibility and in particular the local authorities, city officials, parish or county officials who have jurisdiction in these affairs. It is the same scenario all over the country in every major metropolitan area.
actually, it is. that's part of number 2.
Here is the 364 buses operated by the New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority (NORTA) that Nagin should have used to evacuate the poor.
Why weren't NORTA's 364 buses used to ferry poor people out of New Orleans before Katrina hit?
good question. why weren't they?
RTA buses never left the RTA lots. There was no water or food provisions brought to the Superdome before Katrina hit. There were no emergency generators brought to either the Superdome or the convention center before the storm hit. These are not the responsibility of FEMA these are local responsibilities.
see that bit above about coordinating federal, state, and local efforts?
FEMA did not do their job. They were too slow to respond when it became blindingly obvious that state and local officials were helpless.
from personal experience here, fema is pretty helpless too. this is not the first disaster they've botched. i happened to be in the other one. fema did a LITTLE of the funding part of the job, until money ran out. then they high-tailed it out of the state, only to return and investigate who bought what with it. nearest i can tell, they didn't do anything else.
in other words, they're about an 1/8th of their job. maybe they're drastically underfunded. but if they're going to essentially do nothing, blame the victims, and then pat themselves on the back for a job well done, why bother having them?
yes, state and local officials are helpless. that's the idea behind having fema. they're supposed to take charge. i don't expect you to understand this, really. you live in kansas. not that there's anything wrong with kansas, but it's not florida. you have no reference for understanding the madhouse an entire state can become when a category 4 or 5 hurricane is beaing down on your coast.
that calm before a storm? it's a myth. the sky might be dead, but the people on the ground are maddly doing everything they can to prepare. grocery stores are a nightmare. no bread, no water, no batteries, no charcoal -- the shelves are empty and the aisles full. home depot sells out of plywood for the next 6 months. people are running around relocating. many try to leave, and clog the highways. the VIDEO STORE is even jumping with activity.
you have no way to understand activity, panic and mass hysteria on a state level. these things don't happen in kansas. but we're pretty familiar with it down here. there are not enough police officers, army reserve, fire fighters, paramedics or whatever in the entire state to deal with even the craziness BEFORE the storm, let alone after.
the trick is to prepare as early as possible. make sure you have all the things you need before you even know there's a hurricane coming. we have a very helpful resource here, the national hurricane center. every june or july they issue a guide before the hurricane season. the people who have to evacuate know when and where they have to evacuate to. we're not as prepared as cuba, but we're not in the dark either.
if we can prepare for forseeable disasters, so should fema. that's their job. they might not have been able to prevent this disaster, but they certainly could have planned for it better, and i dunno, actually done SOMETHING. anything at all.
Some will continue to argue that FEMA should have been involved earlier and that they should have taken over local control of the situation before the storm hit. But that's not how the system works.
Federal, State and Local authorities operate under a system whereby powers and jurisdictions are understood. Not just in New Orleans, but everywhere in this country.
THE SYSTEM: Either live with it or change it.
actually, the whole point of fema is that they have the jurisdiction to suspend local, county, and state jurisdiction. actually, if i recall correctly, they have the authority to suspend FEDERAL jurisdiction too. the system is that they come in, say "we're running the show now. do this, this, this, this, and that. here's money, here's manpower from other states." that's why they exist.
if they're just an extra layer of red tape, sitting around with their thumbs up their asses, shifting blame and spinning propaganda, and not even doing a damned thing then we don't need them, and they should shuttup and go away.
basically they should at least TRY to do their jobs, or get lost.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Monk, posted 09-05-2005 2:25 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Monk, posted 09-05-2005 7:09 PM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 297 (240624)
09-05-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
09-03-2005 7:17 AM


Re: natural disasters
where is the dhs?
and what have they been doing for the last 3-4 years if they haven't even thought of creating evacuation plans for major cities.
it seems to me that we have two agencies that are simply utterly failing to serve their purposes.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 45 of 297 (240626)
09-05-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Chiroptera
09-05-2005 3:11 PM


Re: once again, monk misses the point
Chiroptera writes:
The impression I got was that if people didn't have a means of transportation, a place to go, or a way of providing for themselves they were stuck.
But this is conservative america, where the government is the problem. If the government would just get out of the way, we wouldn't have these problems.
Or at least that's what the conservatives keep telling us.

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