Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   ID daze in COURT ... Time to place your bets ...
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 46 of 52 (269404)
12-14-2005 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jazzns
12-14-2005 10:23 AM


Re: I can't believe there are no IDERS in this thread!
Q. And intelligent design has been around for almost 20 years. Is that correct?
A. Has it? That sounds a bit long to me, but --
Q. If Of Pandas and People was first published in 1989 --
From The "Wedge" Document, by Phillip Johnson - considered by many the formal beginning of neo-paleyism (ID):
The very beginning of this strategy, the "thin edge of the wedge," was Phillip ohnson's critique of Darwinism begun in 1991 in Darwinism on Trial, and continued in Reason in the Balance and Defeatng Darwinism by Opening Minds. Michael Behe's highly successful Darwin's Black Box followed Johnson's work.
The "wedge document" was apparently written in 1998 (it talks about things that has happened in 1997 and what will happen in 1999-2003 as the next five years).
"Defeating Darwinism By Opening Minds" was first published in 1997
"Darwin's Black Box" was first published in 1996.
And further "Of Pandas and People" started with creationism (1983) and was altered to fit ID later (1987), with a "second edition" published in 1993.
From Wikipedia article on "Of Pandas and People" (click):
The creationism case in question ” Edwards v. Aguillard ” was decided by the Supreme Court in 1987. The court determined that teaching creationism in public schools violated the Establishment Clause of the United States constitution, but that alternative scientific theories could be taught. While the decision ruled out any return to teaching traditional Young Earth creationism in science classes, it did offer an opening for those willing to recast creationist doctrine in the language of science.
According to documents released in a 2005 court case in Pennsylvania, the outcome of the case prompted major editorial changes to the book. It was initially focused entirely on creationism but was extensively edited to refer to "intelligent design" instead. The first draft was called Creation Biology (1983); the next was Biology and Creation (1986); the third, Biology and Origin (1987); and later in 1987, the authors settled on the final title, Of Pandas and People.
(bold mine for emPHAsis)
I believe they first change to the ID format by simply substituting ID for creationism but otherwise left the text unaltered.
That would make 1987 the earliest book involving modern neo-paleyist ID concepts of the ones listed.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jazzns, posted 12-14-2005 10:23 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Brad McFall, posted 12-14-2005 8:08 PM RAZD has not replied

Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5023 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 47 of 52 (269409)
12-14-2005 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by RAZD
12-14-2005 8:03 PM


Re: I can't believe there are no IDERS in this thread!
It is a bit more complicated than simply thinking that creationists edit books like we do posts to EVC. Henry Morris responded to me with the word "biology" and the word "creation" and I could clearly sense a meaning he was using for them that WAS NOT any sense I had heard or used before. I think that thinking that P&P was a simple hack job is a far cry from seperating the catch from the rye, but point taken. One could study such terms by starting from the NUMBERS book with title "THE CREATIONISTS" for instance and then wonder what PENNOCK had to add.to all the bablefishy fish...
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 12-14-2005 08:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2005 8:03 PM RAZD has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 48 of 52 (269580)
12-15-2005 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jazzns
12-14-2005 10:23 AM


Re: I can't believe there are no IDERS in this thread!
Also found this absolute GEM!.
Oh I forgot to mention one of my favorite parts. After refusing to acknowledge that ID was a kind of creationism, the prosecutor pulls out that article written by him which was discussing religion based activities and then gave as example:
intelligent design aka creationism
And then Fuller tried to wriggle out saying he wasn't really aware of what it was at the time and anyway a lot more work had been done in it, when he had already said it had not advanced at all with regard to justification rules, which are the only thing that matter.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jazzns, posted 12-14-2005 10:23 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Sylas, posted 12-15-2005 6:53 AM Silent H has replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5250 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 49 of 52 (269594)
12-15-2005 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Silent H
12-15-2005 5:23 AM


Finding choice extracts from the trial transcripts
The talkorigins archive has provided an html version of the entire trial transcipts; and there are links to every speaker.
For example, the question from the plaintiff counsel during cross examination of Fuller that refers to the "intelligent design theory, a.k.a. creationism" gaff can be found here.
Hi folks... still lurking... Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 12-15-2005 5:23 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 12-15-2005 7:57 AM Sylas has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 50 of 52 (269599)
12-15-2005 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Sylas
12-15-2005 6:53 AM


Re: Finding choice extracts from the trial transcripts
glad to see you're still around... always liked you.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Sylas, posted 12-15-2005 6:53 AM Sylas has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 51 of 52 (271128)
12-20-2005 1:23 PM


Collect your winnings... ID KO'd
The verdict is in and ID is out... of Dover anyway.
"Intelligent design" cannot be mentioned in biology classes in a Pennsylvania public school district, a federal judge said Tuesday, ruling in one of the biggest courtroom clashes on evolution since the 1925 Scopes trial.
Dover Area School Board members violated the Constitution when they ordered that its biology curriculum must include the notion that life on Earth was produced by an unidentified intelligent cause, U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III said. Several members repeatedly lied to cover their motives even while professing religious beliefs, he said.
...
"We find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom," he wrote in his 139-page opinion.
...
"our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom."
...
Said the judge: "It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."
That's going to be hard to come back from.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 52 of 52 (271133)
12-20-2005 1:43 PM


Going to unify topics, by closing this one
We now have at least 2 topics running, both concerning the Dover court case.
I am going to close this one, and guide subsequent messages to the Dover science teachers refuse to read ID disclaimer topic.
Sorry if I cut someone off in message preparation. Maybe you can use your "back" button to recover your prepared text.
Closing this topic.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024