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Author Topic:   The UK Election!!!!
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 421 of 427 (748739)
01-28-2015 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Straggler
01-28-2015 5:05 PM


Re: Greece
... They have voted in an overtly left wing government that is going to implement policies that will directly challenge the IMF, ECB and world bank and which will bring them into direct conflict with Germany specifically and the neo-liberal hegemony more generally.
What they are challenging is whether the EU imposed austerity measures are the correct path to take to resolve the economic issues.
It isn't. Austerity only prolongs the economic problems and provides no solution. Meanwhile people suffer until the ignored processes that actually work to resolve the problem work their way through the morass created by austerity programs.
One only has to look at the US where the GOP has done everything they could to prevent recovery and job growth, anything that would make Obama look good. It's taken six years of austerity and failure to act, but the growth from the bottom has started anyway and has reached the point now where true recovery is beginning anyway.
The only ones that benefit from the austerity programs are the ones that caused the economic crisis -- the big banks and corrupt politicians in the banker pockets rolling back regulations on banks and "bailing out" (paying off) the banks that caused the problem with excessive greed and zero compassion for the working people.
If you are truly interested in resolving the economic problem you will:
  • prosecute and jail the individual bankers and politicians that caused the economic collapse,
  • divide the banks into small entities,
  • bail out the people -- seize foreclosure properties by eminent domain and resell them to the people at reduced (to current) value with current interest rate mortgages,
  • set a minimum living wage for all workers,
  • require equal pay for work of equal value
  • require mandatory overtime pay for all work over 40 hours/week
  • require unions be allowed as a basic right of workers
  • have universal single payer health-care and welfare de-linked from employment
  • close tax loopholes and tax all money leaving the country
For starters.
I realize some of you will be somewhat bewildered by some of this, but it is because the US is rather backward compared to the EU countries and you already have some of these items.
It's certainly brave. But I can't help thinking that whatever the political, or even economic, rights and wrongs of this the forces against Greece are just too overwhelming for it to end well for them. I fear they will be made an example of by the powers that be determined to show what happens to those who reject the established economic consensus.
Or they will be the spark that ignites protest in the rest of the EU from the workers that are feeling the brunt of the austerity measures. Spain is having an election soon and they are taking a long strong look at what happens in Greece.
Interesting to see how it pans out and whether, as many may hope, Greece is the first small step towards a different kind of politics in Europe.
And maybe in the world, if it comes to the recognition that capitalism inevitably results in economic collapse without strong, lasting and socially oriented controls.
With the increase in productivity of workers from increasing AI\robot assistance we need a different paradigm than having all people working 9 to 5 jobs.
If we instead say that people deserve a guaranteed base annual salary for participating in the economy, then people can pursue fulfilling careers, from art to science to engineering and architecture and medical care, etc, without it being a decision predicated on how much you make, how many hours you work and how much you go to college.
The world could work on part time. The question is whether workers will demand their fair share of the production improvements or allow it to be concentrated in the greedy corporations.
We do no need fracking for oil, the world does not want fracking for oil as it destroys whole ecologies and destroys groundwater.
A socially and ecologically aware society would not build the KXL pipeline but would replace it with solar and wind energy
[/rant]
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2015 5:05 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Straggler, posted 01-29-2015 9:49 AM RAZD has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 422 of 427 (748761)
01-29-2015 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by RAZD
01-28-2015 7:59 PM


Re: Greece
RAZ writes:
What they are challenging is whether the EU imposed austerity measures are the correct path to take to resolve the economic issues.
That is absolutely the priority and indeed the starting point. But it goes further than that. It is about challenging the systems that gave rise to the crisis that austerity has been the prescribed response to. Syriza's stated aim is to take on the oligarchs and financial elites that have crippled Greeces economy for decades as well as to take on the merchants of austerity. They are seen as different aspects of the same wider problem.
RAZ writes:
Spain is having an election soon and they are taking a long strong look at what happens in Greece.
Very much so. If Spain does something similar to Greece that will be incredibly significant because Spain is a large European economy where Greece is a relatively small one. Those interested should have a look at Podemos
RAZ writes:
If you are truly interested in resolving the economic problem you will:..
In the UK we lack the firebrand leftwingers of Greece and Spain. But, in policy terms at least, we have the relatively cuddly Green party as the closest equivalents. Currently polling in at around 10%. The reason I mention them is that their policies seem to fairly closely match your own mini-manifesto (outlined here and elsewhere at EvC). It's a stance I have a lot of sympathy with in principle, but I am not convinced it adds up financially. The following is a link to an interview with the leader of the UK Green party putting forward things like a 'Citizens Income'. The interviewer in question avoids challenging any of the premises the policies are based on and instead ruthlessly pursues the economics of such policies. It is uncomfortable viewing.
Link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2015 7:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Tangle, posted 01-29-2015 9:54 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 424 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2015 11:41 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 423 of 427 (748762)
01-29-2015 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Straggler
01-29-2015 9:49 AM


Re: Greece
Straggler writes:
It is about challenging the systems that gave rise to the crisis that austerity has been the prescribed response to. Syriza's stated aim is to take on the oligarchs and financial elites that have crippled Greeces economy for decades as well as to take on the merchants of austerity.
They've also got to examine the mote in their own eye. There is a general culture of tax avoidance from top to bottom in Greece - everybody participates from the large to the small. It's got to change if they want to progress.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Straggler, posted 01-29-2015 9:49 AM Straggler has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 424 of 427 (748777)
01-29-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Straggler
01-29-2015 9:49 AM


Re: Greece
In the UK we lack the firebrand leftwingers of Greece and Spain. But, in policy terms at least, we have the relatively cuddly Green party as the closest equivalents. Currently polling in at around 10%. The reason I mention them is that their policies seem to fairly closely match your own mini-manifesto (outlined here and elsewhere at EvC). It's a stance I have a lot of sympathy with in principle, but I am not convinced it adds up financially. The following is a link to an interview with the leader of the UK Green party putting forward things like a 'Citizens Income'. ...
Most likely at least one of the reasons that the Green Party is not as strong in UK as in other parts of EU is that a lot of the other issues I listed are already taken care of.
... The interviewer in question avoids challenging any of the premises the policies are based on and instead ruthlessly pursues the economics of such policies. It is uncomfortable viewing.
Link
Curiously I found it intriguing that he agreed with policy in a lot of areas in spite of his economic blind spot. He also committed a couple of logical errors, such as reducing military spending with eliminating it.
One point I would make is that the guaranteed income would (a) boost all income levels and (b) increase spending by those at the bottom -- spending that must de facto end up in somebody else's pocket as increased income that would be taxed.
The woman did mention how wages would have to adjust once people did not have to rely on wages to live, and how then garbage collectors may need to be paid more ... but then did not tie that back into them being in a higher tax bracket as a result. Net result would be workers getting more in wages, and then paying the taxes on that increased income.
If you are going to ask me to flip burgers for you, then you will need to pay me enough to interest me in doing that work. And you better respect the workers or they will just walk out on you.
And I thought he was relatively disingenuous in saying that all the top earners would high tail it out of the country when the amount of tax increase was not discussed. A 1% tax increase does not drive addicts away from cigarettes, and these people are addicted to accumulating (but not always spending) money. Losing them from the economy could actually improve the remaining economy.
Do you want people who are net hoarders of money and people who are net destroyers of the ecology in the pursuit of greater wealth as opposed to social responsibility?
... The interviewer in question avoids challenging any of the premises the policies are based on and instead ruthlessly pursues the economics of such policies. It is uncomfortable viewing.
As productivity improves so more work can be done with fewer work hours, the question becomes how the wealth of that work is distributed -- do we continue to permit the greedy rich to hoard the proceeds or do we distribute it to the population with guaranteed living income and part time work by those interested in working to earn more, dividing up the work hours between more people.
Very much so. If Spain does something similar to Greece that will be incredibly significant because Spain is a large European economy where Greece is a relatively small one. Those interested should have a look at Podemos
Indeed.
quote:
Podemos originated in the aftermath of the 2011 Indignados movement against inequality and corruption. It is a left-wing populist party that seeks to address the problems of inequality, unemployment and economic malaise that followed in the wake of the European debt crisis. Podemos has called for a renegotiation of austerity measures and seeks to curtail the Treaty of Lisbon.
Podemos is currently the second largest Spanish party by number of members;[7] it became the third largest party within the first 20 days it allowed membership, with 100,000 signing up in that period,[8] and currently has more than 300,000 members.
About the time of the Occupy Movement actions around the world ...
AFAIK Spain does not have the social safety net that France and UK have, and that could spark more unrest in the worker ranks.
We've had a swing to more conservative governments here, in Canada, and in the EU countries ... maybe its time for the pendulum to swing the other way ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Straggler, posted 01-29-2015 9:49 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 425 of 427 (748828)
01-29-2015 7:18 PM


Mc Dave
Hilarious.
Rap

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2015 4:11 PM Straggler has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 426 of 427 (748945)
01-31-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Straggler
01-29-2015 7:18 PM


Spain
Breaking today ...
quote:
Spaniards hold mass rally for leftist Podemos ahead of elections
Published time: January 31, 2015 15:53
Edited time: January 31, 2015 17:31
Spaniards hold mass rally for leftist Podemos ahead of elections RT World News
Tens of thousands of Spaniards have taken to the streets of central Madrid in support of Podemos, a leftist political party campaigning on an anti-austerity platform. The party’s popularity has soared in the wake of the Syriza victory in Greece.
Podemos, which means We can, is currently leading in opinion polls, ahead of both of Spain’s mainstream parties as the regional, municipal and national elections approach.
The party was formed only a year ago, but shocked the political establishment when members won five seats in the European Parliament.
Many in the crowd waved Greek and Republican flags and banners which read the change is now, as demonstrators chanted yes we can and tic tac, tic tac, Reuters reports.
Podemos leader, Pablo Iglesias told the cheering crowd that democracy will prevail.
We’re sending a message to Europe to Spain. Today is a day for change. It’s a battle between democracy and austerity, and democracy will win. We’re not here to protest. We’re here for change, he said.
People are fed up with the political class," Antonia Fernandez, a 69-year-old pensioner who came to the rally with her family told Reuters.
Other protesters echoed discontent with the two mainstream parties.
This our future. This is what we want. I can’t stand the ruling People’s Party or the Socialists. I want them to go, a protestor told RT.
Could be game changing for the EU.
Is this the beginning of an "EU Spring"?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Straggler, posted 01-29-2015 7:18 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 427 of 427 (754493)
03-27-2015 10:26 AM


Paxmaned
The first of the UK election "debates". For whatever reason the two protagonists don't actually debate each other but instead face an interview with the renowned (in the UK)"rottweiller" of a political interviewer Jeremy Paxman. Frankly I think David Cameron made a mistake opting for that format as he probably would have had an easier time going head to head with the leader of the opposition. There is also a section for each leader to face questions from a studio audience.
It actually starts about 50 seconds in and can be found here if anyone is interested...
Link

  
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